Welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread, loyal Knights, Ardents, or whatever else you are! This week we’ll be covering two chapters, in which we see a bit more of Dalinar’s past (and his first meeting with Evi!) and get a little glimpse of Kaladin’s continued journey with the parshmen. Questions abound in these chapters… how crazy was young!Dalinar for walking around in a highstorm? Who sent that assassin after Gavilar? What makes an enemy, and who deserves to die in a war? And just what the heck are those spindly light-things that are walking around in the highstorms, anyway?
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. If you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done, but we don’t have any broader Cosmere speculation this time around, so if you haven’t read the rest of Sanderson’s books, you’re safe to read on.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Young!Dalinar; Kaladin
WHERE: Somewhere in Alethkar; both are in unspecified locations
WHEN: 1142 (31 years ago, or about 2 years after the previous flashback); 1174.1.3.4 (the day after we last saw him at the end of Chapter 17)
Chapter 19
In this flashback chapter, Dalinar is attending a feast with his brother and Sadeas. He realizes that he’s forgotten his favorite knife, and heads out into the highstorm to look for it. When he returns, everyone is horrified that he just went out for a casual stroll in the midst of such carnage. Gavilar has a discussion about the Rirans who wish to form an alliance with them in return for a set of Shardplate, then an assassin attempts to stab him. Dalinar thwarts the attempt, then agrees to marry Evi, the Riran ambassador’s sister.
Chapter 20
After that fun little flashback (which is the last fun flashback we’ll see out of Dalinar for the rest of the book), we return to Kaladin and his group of runaway Parshmen. Not much happens here, except for a deep conversation about who deserves to have a say in the slavery of the Parshmen, which we’ll get into below.
Threshold of the Storm
Titles
The Subtle Art of Diplomacy; Cords to Bind
“I wonder if men who use cords to bind are fools, since tradition, society, and momentum are going to tie us all down anyway.”
Lyn: Good old Sanderson, dropping these philosophical truth-bombs on us one after another.
Heralds
Chana & Vedel
Alice: Chapter 19 has Chanarach in all four spots: the Guard, Brave & Obedient, patron of the Dustbringers. That’s… sort of everywhere here, isn’t it? Dalinar guarding his brother, brave in warfare but obedient to Gavilar’s political need, and also rather destructive when loosed.
Chapter 20, interestingly enough, gives us Vedel: the Healer, Loving & Healing, patron of the Edgedancers; she’s apparently also a real healer, since Taln’s mutterings claimed that she would train the surgeons in preparation for a Desolation. The chapter starts with Kaladin bandaging Khen’s arm and giving instructions for wound care, but it’s all about caring for people… and figuring out how to know who to care for.
Icon
Kholinar glyph, inverted for 19, Kaladin’s spears and banner for 20.
Epigraph
None for chapter 19, 20’s is as follows:
However, with a dangerous spice, you can be warned to taste lightly. I would that your lesson may not be as painful as my own.
—From Oathbringer, preface
A: Last week we talked about spices as something you need to experience for yourself, and tied it to Shallan’s inability to truly be Veil because of never having experienced that lifestyle. This week, Kaladin is having difficulty “tasting lightly”—it’s not in his character to care superficially for people. When he becomes involved in someone’s cause, he tends to throw himself fully into it—being the best soldier in Amaram’s army, protecting his bridgemen, protecting the Kholin family, and now aiding this troop of former parshmen. And as we all know, that inability to taste lightly—or care lightly—is going to hurt later. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing, but it’s going to be painful. Maybe not as painful as Dalinar’s lesson, though, so there’s that.
Stories & Songs
Outside the feast hall, a storm raged like a madman who’d been locked away, impotent and ignored.
L: Interesting choice of words here, considering that later in his life Dalinar will lock away one of the Heralds who returned, thinking him a madman…
Relationships & Romances
“Excuse me, Lord Gavilar,” Toh stammered. “I… I find myself in need of refreshment.”
L: This poor guy. Dalinar must look like an absolute monster to him—and he’s got to face the fact that his sister is going to have to spend the rest of her life with him.
But that hair. It made her stand out, like a candle’s glow in a dark room.
A:Like father, like son? Because that’s almost the exact same reaction Adolin had, the first time he saw Shallan.
L: Because I was curious, I went and looked it up:
Who was that?
Gorgeous red hair. There wasn’t a single lock of black in it.
L: Guess the Kholins just have a thing for hair!
A: Apparently! But they also have a thing for different. Part of what appealed to Adolin was that Shallan was so different than the Alethi, with her red hair, her slenderness, and her fair skin.
L: And the freckles. He definitely pointed out her freckles. (Adorable.)
A: Yes, he did! Here, Dalinar notes Evi’s slenderness as well, and in both scenes the men call out the women’s figures as a contrast to the typical Alethi… statuesque build. I suppose for Dalinar, part of the appeal is that Evi doesn’t look anything like Navani, but still—both Dalinar and Adolin seem to be drawn to the way their respective brides-to-be look so different from everyone else.
L: This seems pretty true-to-life, in general. A lot of people are attracted to the exotic.
Bruised & Broken
“I know it looks deep, but it’s often better to be cut deep by a sharp knife than to be raggedly gouged by something dull.”
L: I’m going to put my pricey English BA degree to use here and posit that Sanderson’s not just talking about physical wounds. Better to be hurt swiftly and deeply than to have something drag on and on. The question is, which particular emotional wound would this be foreshadowing? Kaladin’s pain over seeing those on both sides of the conflict die? Moash’s betrayal? Something deeper that we haven’t seen yet (please god no, poor Kal’s been through enough)?
A: Tarah, maybe? Or Amaram’s betrayal and the murder of his squad? In the first case, it seems to have been fairly quick (though we’ll talk more about that when we get the story). In the second, the initial betrayal was pretty sharp, but the ongoing fact of the slavery to which Amaram sold him definitely dragged on. And on. And on.
On the other hand, the arc that Kaladin goes through when they reach Kholinar, of getting to know the Wall Guard and then the agony of watching his friends killing each other, followed by the slog through Shadesmar feeling helpless and conflicted, and repeated unable to speak the fourth Ideal… that could definitely be foreshadowed right here. Ouch.
“I hate,” Sah continued, “feeling like a child. … I hate being taught things that I should already know. Most of all, I hate needing your help. We ran. We escaped. Now what? You leap in, start telling us what to do? We’re back to following Alethi orders again.”
L: I feel so bad for these parshmen.
A: I know, right? Kaladin has so much to offer them, but it’s got to feel just horrible to have to learn it from him. I long to see some of these former slaves found by the former Listeners, assuming Thude & Co. managed to survive. (We still don’t know, do we?)
“And that’s why we should be free now? Because we’re acting like you? We deserved slavery before, when we were different?”
L: Hoo boy. There’s a lot going on in this little bit. Cultural Erasure—one culture trying to force another to conform to their ideals and norms—is a long-standing tradition in humanity. We see it in the missionaries of old Christianity, we see it in the European settlers when they discovered the Native Americans, and we see echoes of it in gentrification today. If someone is different, the first tendency historically speaking seems to be to change it to suit our own view of “normalcy.” Or, as in this case… to enslave it. To view it as lesser than. Sah’s got an excellent point that just because they’re acting like “normal” Alethi now, doesn’t mean that they were any less deserving of respect when they weren’t.
A: It’s far more complicated than that, though. On the one hand, the parshmen would never have been enslaved had not Melishi broken their Connection.
L: …who? Is this more WoB stuff that I’m not caught up on?
A: Oops. Right. Melishi was referenced in the epigraph to WoR chapter 58; he was the Bondsmith who came up with the idea that “dealt with the Voidbringers.”
L: So all of this was spelled out there, or is this a combination of epigraph and WoB type stuff?
A: It’s kind of a combination. There’s some spelled out, and some stacked together by combining epigraphs. As I understand it (and I could be wrong on this), Melishi concocted and enacted the plan to trap the Unmade that gave the parsh the ability to bond spren and take on the forms. On a bet, this ended the “false Desolation,” which happened sometime after the Oathpact was broken but before the Recreance. (Or some guess that this was actually at the same time as the Recreance.)
L: Ahhhh okay. Thanks! Now back to your regularly scheduled train of thought…
A: Well, once their Connection was broken, the parsh might have died out as a people without the humans taking care of them. That doesn’t justify ownership of once-sapient beings, necessarily, and it most certainly doesn’t justify treating them like animals as some clearly did. At the same time, since the humans broke them, it was the responsibility of the humans to care for them, and it seems only fair that they should participate in their own care by doing useful work.
It’s really a complex issue. Was Melishi wrong to end a war by imprisoning the Unmade who enabled the parsh to take on the forms? He probably saved a lot of lives by doing it—both human and parsh. Once done, would it then have been wrong to let the mind-numbed parsh wander off and die out? Was it better to take them in… and make slaves of them? There’s no easy answer. (But oh, how it hurts to know that a sapient people were reduced to bare sentience by the action of one man.)
Storms, I shouldn’t be here. I’m starting to want to defend these people! Teach them to fight. I don’t dare—the only way I can fight the Voidbringers is to pretend there’s a difference between the ones I have to protect and the ones I have to kill.”
A: Well, that there is some seriously painful foreshadowing! I’m pretty sure this will tie to Kaladin’s fourth Ideal, but in the meantime, it’s exactly why he froze in Kholinar: because there was no difference, in that moment, between the ones he had to protect and the ones he had to kill. He had to protect them all, but they were all killing each other. So he froze.
L:It’s heartbreaking. I love what Sanderson’s doing here. This isn’t clear-cut Good vs Evil like Tolkien’s orcs—the bad guys aren’t dressed all in black and laughing maniacally as they’re tying damsels to the train tracks. They’re just people, people with a legitimate grievance and reason to seek retribution for the wrongs that have been done to them. Both sides are the “good guys.”
A: That Sanderson. Again with the complex scenarios that cannot be fixed and tied up with a nice neat bow.
Squires & Sidekicks
A: I’m going to put this here, where it doesn’t entirely belong, but … sort of?
“We’ve been assessing the sister,” Ialai said, leaning in from Gavilar’s other side. “She’s a touch vapid—”
“A touch?” Navani asked.
“—but I’m reasonably sure she’s being honest.”
… “She kept trying to eat with her safehand,” Navani said, eyebrow cocked.
… “They go about half-clothed out in the far west, you know. Rirans, Iriali, the Reshi. They aren’t as inhibited as these prim Alethi women. I bet she’s quite exotic in the bedroom.…”
A: This really infuriated me. I’ve never liked Ialai (we weren’t supposed to, right?) but I’ve always loved Navani. Until this. I remind myself that they’re probably in their early twenties, and they haven’t likely traveled outside of Alethkar, but they make fun of Evi simply because she comes from a culture different than their own. Young!Navani isn’t a terribly nice person any more than Young!Dalinar, though she’s not as barbaric as he is, and she doesn’t need to change as much over the next thirty years.
L: Yeah. This has a bit of a Mean Girls vibe to it and it’s a little off-putting.
Flora & Fauna
Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs.
A: What under the three moons is this? I’ve heard a variety of theories, but none of them really answer all the objections. If it were the larger form of a chasmfiend, wouldn’t Dalinar recognize it later? If it were a thunderclast, likewise. In fact, that’s the biggest argument against it being any of the creatures we’ve seen so far—Dalinar has seen all of them, and has never once thought that one of them was similar to that thing he saw in the storm.
The best I can say is that it’s probably in the category of things that rely on spren & Stormlight in order to function at that size.
L: A stormspren, perhaps? If there are rainspren, surely the storm itself must have one, and it would be far larger than most other spren. The Stormfather isn’t really the manifestation of the storm itself, after all—it’s more like he possesses it. Perhaps smaller storms have these as well. (Although, come to think of it… does Roshar even have smaller storms, or is it just the highstorm—and now the Everstorm—that sweeps through?)
A: Hmmm. I hadn’t thought about the possibility that it might be a spren, rather than a spren-supported critter. I’ve also assumed that it’s likely the same sort of beastie that Kaladin and Shallan saw during the highstorm in their chasm crawl, in Words of Radiance, Chapter 74:
He swore he saw an enormous figure walking up there, a glowing inhuman form, followed by another, alien and sleek. Striding the storm. Leg after leg, until the glow passed.
Is it valid to assume they’re the same kind of critter? Or are there multiple strange and usually not-seen beasts wandering around during highstorms? I’ve been checking, and as near as I can tell, every question touching the subject has gotten a RAFO. Guess we’ll have to… um… read and find out.
Places & Peoples
“Yes, sieges happen now and then, but it’s very hard to starve out a city’s soldiers while there are Soulcasters and emeralds to make food.”
L: Tactically, this is really interesting to think about! The challenges inherent in defeating an enemy who has a limitless supply of food and rain-water, thanks to the highstorms…
A: I enjoyed the brief tactical discussions in this chapter. They didn’t go into an extended strategy infodump, but I love the way these Westerners give us a chance to learn about different approaches to warfare. Like, you can’t starve them out if they have Soulcasters.
“Soulcasters. We have not these things in Rira or Iri.”
L: I wonder why not…
A: I wonder how much fabrial technology they have at all; we haven’t really been told how widespread it is. I suspect the reason Rira and Iri don’t have them might be related to the source of the supply; as far as we know, no one around now is capable of making new ones, right? So every Soulcaster fabrial in existence is from the ones that have been maintained since way back whenever-they-were-made, which seems to have been at least before the scouring of Aimia, right? Hmm. Clearly I need to go research Soulcasters again, because I can’t remember what we know about them!
L: Well, Navani and others are making fabrials, but Soulcasters? I’m not sure either…
A: And something just occurred to me: will the fact that the Iri don’t have Soulcasters come into play as the war progresses? Or did it already—did they give in so quickly because the Fused were able to starve them into submission, and we just don’t know that part yet?
“House Kholin, House Sadeas… all of the princedoms. Their founders were [the Sunmaker’s] sons, you know.”
L: This is very cool, and makes a lot of sense. Of course the conqueror’s children would split up his kingdom amongst themselves.
A: Naturally. It makes me wonder about what happens when Gavilar conquers a princedom by killing the highprince, though. Does his next of kin take over, as long as he’ll swear fealty? Or do they give it to someone who supports them, and just claim right of something-or-other to say, “Well, this guy is descended from Sunmaker too”?
“They’re master-servants, Dalinar,” his brother said, making a sign by raising his hand in a particular way. “The sign of need, remember?”
L: Interesting. I don’t remember these being mentioned before…
A: Oh, they’re around. I’ve been dressing as a master-servant at almost every Sanderson signing since TWoK came out! They’re just… servants, and you don’t think that hard about them. We first saw them when Shallan went to the Conclave in Kharbranth, back in TWoK Chapter 3. You recognize them because they wear white shirts with black skirts or trousers, and they’re high servants. Shallan’s father could never get any master-servants to work for him, because they didn’t like the working conditions and they are in high enough demand to be choosy.
L: I guess it’s true what they say about servants being invisible, even in fiction. Though if we had any as POV characters, that would probably help!
A: Honestly, if he hadn’t described the outfit enough times for me to think, “Hey, that would be an easy cosplay!” I probably wouldn’t really have noticed them either. They sure are the stereotype of the snooty servant, though!
Shardplate.
Taken from his homeland of Rira and brought east, as far as Toh could get from his kinsmen—who were reportedly outraged to find such a precious heirloom stolen.
L: Well, this explains why the Rirans are still so mad at Dalinar in the present time. I do wonder, however, how Toh expects to form any sort of alliance without the backing of his kin. We get this a little later:
“They want someone who can protect them, someone their family will be too afraid to attack.” … “If people outside of the kingdom start coming to me for refuge and treaties, we might be able to sway the remaining highprinces.”
L: Did Toh know this going into negotiations? What exactly was he offering, other than the Shardplate? Or was he just assuming that the Shardplate was valuable enough to warrant granting the rest of his demands?
A: I think the latter—he knew Shardplate would be extremely valuable, so he wanted to find someone who a) could protect him if the fam came looking for him and b) was strong enough to hold onto it for his and his sister’s lifetimes—or at least long enough that any pursuit would have given up.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Instead we usually break down the walls quickly, or—more commonly—we seize the high ground and use the vantage to pound the city for awhile.
L: I’m sorry, I had to.
A: ::gigglesnort::
“Teleb,” Dalinar said, standing in the doorway. “Did I lend you my belt knife? My favorite one, with the whitepine ivory on the grip?”
L: I absolutely love this, because I can just see it so clearly from the soldiers’ perspective. The highstorm raging outside, then something comes banging on their door. Who could be mad enough to be outside in this? Then the Shardblade slicing through the bar, and the door blowing open to reveal Dalinar, hair whipping in the wind, soaked to the skin… and he just nonchalantly asks for his knife, as if nothing at all were strange about this situation. And then there’s this:
Dalinar stepped back up to the feast hall, gave the whatever-it-was a rude gesture, then pushed open the door—throwing aside the two servants who had been holding it closed—and strode back in. Streaming with water, he walked up to the high table, where he flopped into his chair and set down his mug. Wonderful. Now he was wet and he still couldn’t eat his pork.
Everyone had gone silent. A sea of eyes stared at him.
L: Classic moment of comedy, the awkward silence.
“I will see to your desires of course, though you might wish to know that the sign is off. If you’ll allow me to demonstrate—”
Dalinar made a rude gesture. “Is this better?”
L: I can’t really say that I love young Dalinar, because let’s face it—the man’s an ass. But this made me laugh out loud.
A: This whole sequence was gold. Dalinar categorically refuses to be civilized tonight. Everyone—from the soldiers to the master-servants to the lighteyes to the guests—is floored by his uncouth behavior, but it turns out to be exactly what Gavilar needed to gain an advantage he’d been seeking for years.
“If someone insulted my biceps, I wouldn’t attack him,” Dalinar said. “I’d refer him to a physician, because obviously something is wrong with his eyes.”
L: Okay there, Drax the Destroyer.
Dalinar kicked at the assassin to be sure he was dead. He nodded to himself, righted his chair, sat down, then leaned over and yanked the man’s knife from his chest. A fine blade.
He washed it off in his wine, then cut off a piece of his steak and shoved it into his mouth.
L: Oh my god, Dalinar, you can’t just… You… ::massages temple:: Okay. You just… do you, bro.
A: Well, it’s not like he was going to drink the wine after that. He’s not a barbarian.
L: ::giggle::
Weighty Words
An explosive burst of wind drove him against the wall, and he stumbled, then stepped backward, driven by instincts he couldn’t define. A large boulder slammed into the wall, then bounced away.
L: Simple warrior’s instinct, or a harbinger of his eventual Radiant-ness?
A: You took the words right out of my mouth… er… keyboard? Every time Dalinar does something spooky-good, I wonder this thing.
Mundane Motivations
Sadeas held court with a group of lesser lighteyes at a table across the hall. Every one of that group had been carefully chosen: men with uncertain loyalties. He’d talk, persuade, convince. And if he was worried, he’d find ways to eliminate them.
L: I always find it fascinating to see that Sadeas was the negotiator, the diplomat. Perhaps it’s just because I hate him so much for leaving Dalinar to die (not to mention his treatment of the bridgemen), but he doesn’t seem like the type to be a successful diplomat. He’s just… cruel and heartless! Don’t you need to have some empathy in order to negotiate successfully?
A: I’ve been informed that a sociopath can be very good at manipulating people, and you wouldn’t have to work hard to convince me that Torol Sadeas is a sociopath.
But that reminds me of something else that puzzled me, because the next sentence is:
Not with assassins, of course. They all found that sort of thing distasteful; it wasn’t the Alethi way.
A: Later in life (like back in the first two books) both Ialai and Jasnah have some pretty amazing networks of spies and assassins. Is it a women’s thing, or is it that once they became “civilized” and formed a “unified” kingdom, they couldn’t just smash people any more and had to be sneaky?
L: Oh yeah… I’d forgotten that Jasnah had assassins… Interesting that the quote specifically says the ALETHI way, though. That implies, at least to me, both men and women. Maybe the ladies just aren’t letting the men in on this little facet of their own personal Daes Dae’mar.
A: Speaking of assassins, we never find out who sent the one that shows up here. I guess it must not really matter that much—probably one of those four highprinces that are still standing against Gavilar—and the storytelling point was for Dalinar to impress Toh by protecting Gavilar so readily.
L: I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if it was Sadeas, but I have absolutely no reason to suspect him other than the fact that he’s a jerk.
“In all the history of mankind, has any conqueror decided they had enough? Has any man just said, ‘This is good. This is what I wanted,’ and gone home?”
L: This is a really good question, and one I’d be interested to hear the answer to in regards to our world, too. History buffs! Care to enlighten us in the comments?
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
He caught a few shockspren around them, like triangles of yellow light, breaking and reforming. Rare spren, those were.
L: You know… some spren are more geometric, like these, while others seem more natural—like rainspren, which look like candles with a single eye for the flame (this still creeps me out). I wonder if there’s some rhyme or reason to this?
A: Ooooh, what a fascinating study! I wonder if the emotion spren tend toward geometrics, while the natural-phenomenon spren are more object-oriented. I’ll have to look into that… unless someone already has!
“I think I can sense a highstorm coming,” she whispered.
“What? Really?”
She nodded. “It’s distant still. A day or three.” She cocked her head. “I suppose I could have done this earlier, but I didn’t need to. Or know I wanted to. You always had the lists.”
L: Well that’s an interesting development.
Quality Quotations
“That’s foolishness, Gavilar. When people fight, it’s about the stuff. That’s it.”
* * *
“That yellow spren isn’t any better,” Sah muttered. “Hurry up. Keep moving. She tells us we’re free, then with the very next breath berates us for not obeying quickly enough.”
* * *
They’d also mentioned to him the sounds they heard, distant rhythms, almost music.
A: IIRC, this is the first time the troop mentions hearing the rhythms. It seems to imply that although their Connection was restored, they didn’t really get all the effects right away.
* * *
“Middle ground only comes in war after lots of people have died—and only after the important people are worried they might actually lose.”
Next week we’re going to take on two Shallan chapters (21 and 22) in which Shallan will be horribly illogical, and also a couple of “old friends” (read “horrible people we don’t trust as far as we can throw a chasmfiend”) show up in a disturbing place.
Alice has … pretty much nothing to say for herself today. She’s very much enjoyed the beta and pre-gamma versions of Skyward, and is looking forward to the gamma. She’s also very eager to find out what Sanderson’s new “Secret Project” is. Other than that… the end of the school year is approaching rapidly, so her life is crazy busy.
Lyndsey has finally managed to make a breakthrough in the second draft of her fifth novel, after having been stalled on it for several months. She’s quite certain that there’s no better feeling than finally getting back in the editing saddle after a long dry period. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Young Dalinar may be a jerk, but it’s impossible not to be impressed by the way he walks around in a highstorm unscathed.
I also believe that Toh thought just a suit of plate was enough to sell for what he wanted, and that he was right. In many ways, plate is much more valuable than blade.
Alexander pulled back from India after his troops mutinied, but it’s not clear how much he would have kept going with a re-mustered arm if he hadn’t died in Babylon.
Augustus stopped the march of Roman conquest, but it’s not clear that he was a conqueror-type as opposed to a rise-to-the-top-of-the-system type.
I didn’t take Navani talking down Evi as mean girl behavior so much as she didn’t like the idea of Dalinar getting married to anyone. Just a subtle reminder that Dalinar’s feelings for her weren’t totally unrequited.
Come to think of it, I can’t recall any kind of natural rain shower or storm mentioned in the entire series. Is it because the highstorm prevents any type of weather pattern from forming?
My strong impression from the text is that rain without a storm is very unusual, possibly non-existent outside of the weeping. Otherwise, why would the weeping be immediately recognizable on the first day of stormless rain?
Something I didn’t remember to add in my original comment: I think the answer on “but was enslaving an entire race of people actually bad?” is a very clear “yes, it was bad.” An alternative to both genocide and slavery would be the wildlife refuge approach. Keep large areas for the disconnected parsh to live in. Provide wardens to help them feed themselves and kill poachers.
“Outside the feast hall, a storm raged like a madman who’d been locked away, impotent and ignored.”
While this quote made me think of the mad herald, it also made me think of the Stormfather, who could be more powerful and influential if bonded. Stronger together and all that.
Regarding Navani, I’m with John. I read it as her being jealous, not mean. It always sounded like she was torn between Gavalar and Dalinar and only picked the former because he was more stable.
“Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs.”
I thought it was a thunderclast. When Kalidan and Shallan were in the chasm I thought it was a thunderclast that passed over them, too. Can someone point me to where before that Dalinar had ever seen one? I thought it was his first sighting.
@6 – Isn’t a thunderclast a Fused inhabiting stone?
The prevailing theory I have seen and personally agree to is that the stormstriders are Unmade. I believe the theorist pointed out later when Taravangian is tracking Moeloch and Nergoal also coincides when we next see two storm striders in kaladin’s vision. So that’s where my bets lie.
If I recall correctly, Sadeas and Gavilar discussed about dueling a highprince to kill him, and put someone more amenable in place. This leads me to believe when they conquer a place, and kill a highprince, they either threaten the heir to support them, or install someone who supports them.
Regarding human history mimicking Gavilar’s comment. From Alexander the Great, to Napolean, to Hitler, to me it doesn’t look like conquerors like to stop.
So, are the epigraphs supposed to be related to the chapter? Has that always been a thing that I have completely missed? If so, that’s amazing. If it’s just a game you two are playing for this reread, you have made some fun connections.
I have a slightly different take on the epigraph relating to Kaladin’s chapter, though. I would say the emphasis is on ” that your lesson may not be as painful as my own” and how Kaladin is trying to help the parsh learn the skills he learned as a runaway and a survivor in a less painful way than he did, while recognizing that they do need to “taste the spice” themselves.
Edit: Having now read the post, something you said also made me think of how Kaladin had learned (somewhat) how to move past vengeance, and that is something else he can help with. Of course, he is also having to learn how little he understands how deeply the parsh have been hurt and have his worldview widened. All in all, both have something to learn.
Re: Ch. 19 – It was the preview chapter Brandon read while on tour for Calamity, so we’ve had access to it in various forms the longest. It really is a moment of fun. Brandon trying out some comedy for a character that doesn’t get to be comedic. A very Drax type of humor.
And yes, young Navani & Ialai are “mean girls” types here. In a way that shows what the Alethi culture value over what other cultures value. They are also young, so it’s like when a young 20 something travels, yet clings to what they know as “the best.” It can take awhile for that to be educated out of them.
Since Evi was not up on the Alethi word play games – she’s seen as Vapid. She’s left-handed in a culture that does not allow women to be left-handed. She is smart in ways that the Alethi do not value.
This is against human nature too. As Jasnha said in WoK, it’s against human nature to throw away something that can be useful.
Threating them by putting them all in a game preserve is horrifying to me. Way too many parallels to the Reservations many Native American tribes were forced into. And even that would turn into a history like the State of Oklahoma. Have you ever heard of the Trail of Tears? Or the Oklahoma Land Rush of 1889? Along with the other Oklahoma Land Rushes that further reduce the lands Native Americans were allowed to live upon. Then oil was found on reservation lands in eastern Oklahoma. That caused its own round of horrors. If one generation of humans had decided to round up all the parshman into a reservation, another generation would have wanted the land and removed the people.
As an Oklahoma Choctaw tribal member, I was impressed with Sanderson writing this conflict. I was hoping to see more fan discussion and awareness of our modern issues in this context. Maybe even a few people’s eyes being opened.
I’ve not seen or heard much along those lines, but maybe I’m just on the wrong threads.
Open to being corrected by people smarter than me, but didn’t Ch’in Shih Huang Ti unite/conquer China but then instead of trying to conquer the Mongolians who attacked from the north, built the Great Wall? That could be seen as kind of a conqueror type deciding when enough was enough.
@10 you’re right of course, about how even if the current generation acted with good intentions it wouldn’t stop the next from being horrible. I did worry that my proposal was too much like what happened to the native Americans, but tricked myself into believing their actual severed connection would steer people into thinking of it more like elephants and ivory poachers. I guess my larger point is: even if it was an effort to prevent a greater wrong, it was still wrong and the responsible parties should have done more for the singers they spiritually deafened. My proposed solution wasn’t good, but I’m just not going to accept slavery vs. genocide as a binary choice.
Fun side note, when I first tried to swipe “slavery” in the previous paragraph, I somehow got “Disney” instead. Might be something there.
The feast scene demonstrates an aspect of Brandon’s writing style I really appreciate: He usually doesn’t belabor the food. I don’t know why long descriptions of everything fantasy characters eat are so common (looking at you, GRRM), but I’m pretty much over it. I don’t need worldbuilding for lunch.
What’s being served at the king’s feast? Pork. With gravy. Done. The food’s only here because we need something to do until Dalinar stabs a guy.
IIRC there was a light rain fall in TWoK while Kaladin is trying to help the bridgemen
My favorite line is when Navani asks him how he bent his little knife and Dalinar just responds, “Dunno.” I don’t know why, but the grunting response cracks me up, especially when I compare that to Dalinar in the present.
As brutal as Dalinar shows himself to be later, I’d love to see the dinner scene dramatized.
Re: Navani’s remarks about Evi – several have suggested it’s not “mean girl” as much as jealousy. If true, that’s equally repellant; she made her choice, and she’s already married. To now snipe at a girl who might end up in a political marriage with the guy she rejected is every bit as petty and spiteful as just being an ignorant, mean person. I don’t see that as much of an excuse, if you can’t tell…
Austin @@.-@ – I haven’t gone and looked it up (like I should have). Back in TWoK, we had comments about different “seasons” which seemed to hit randomly, but I don’t remember whether any of them included rainfall. Guess it’s time to go do my homework. Also, I don’t know if it’s due to the location, or just because Sanderson decided that it didn’t really work and he needed to just let it disappear, but I don’t recall that particular weather phenomenon being mentioned in WoR or OB.
I’m splitting up my comments by subject here – not trying to increase my comment count, but hopefully make it easier to sort out responses. :D This one is about the storm-striders.
dashichka @6 – The thunderclast theory has been mentioned, but I can’t buy it. Of course we have no record of Dalinar seeing one prior to this event, but he certainly saw one in a vision in WoR, and if it was the same as what he saw here, it seems like he’d have remembered it. At the end of the book, when the thunderclasts are attacking Thaylen City, he certainly remembers the vision – but not this event. So I don’t think it’s a thunderclast. Also, the glowing legs don’t show up with the thunderclasts, although we never see a known thunderclast during a highstorm.
Austin @7 – A thunderclast is certainly a something inhabiting stone; I don’t know think it’s technically a Fused, though. Venli calls them “two larger masses of energy—souls so warped, so mangled, they didn’t seem singer at all.” I assumed that Fused are defined as the result of an ancestor soul joining with a living person’s body, but I could be wrong about that.
scath @8 – Could the stormstriders be Unmade? I suppose it’s possible, though it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Nergaoul certainly didn’t take that kind of form at Thaylen City, and there are no other instances where we see an Unmade using this kind of appearance, though we’ve seen five of them in some other physical form.
Back in the WoR discussion, a lot of people had assumed the figures observed by Kaladin in the chasm scene to be transforming Listeners, which didn’t make any logistical sense to me, because Kaladin & Shallan were much closer to the warcamps than they were to Narak. And like I said, Sanderson has been extremely tight-lipped about them. I don’t think we’re going to come up with a provable theory for a while yet!
How about the missionaries of current Christianity, such as Brandon Sanderson (two years in Korea)? Do you think he made that connection himself?
@18 Wetlandernw
If I recall correctly regarding the theory, the reason the stormstriders appeared that way was because they were in the highstorm as they moved, suffused with investiture. Also consider the thrill had been sitting in Alethkar for hundreds of years but no one saw a red mist sitting perpetually across the nation. Also Moeloch has been around and no one has seen it. So I guess what I am going for is in my opinion I don’t think we know for sure the Unmade are limited to the forms we have seen. But its just a theory I like to prescribe to, and totally understand that it doesn’t sit well with you.
scath @20 – Frankly, I think I’m just expecting to get an explanation that’s going to flip our boots completely, and none of the theories I’ve seen do that for me. The closest is probably Ross’s theory about the chasmfiends (or something like them) on their way to the Reshi sea to become islands. It’s got logistical issues, but at least it would be shockingly cool.
whitespine @9 – The epigraphs aren’t necessarily related to the chapters; their more important function is as part of a larger work – in this case, obviously, the prologue to Dalinar’s memoir. That said, it’s surprising how often they do tie together, and I assume it’s done purposely; this is Sanderson we’re talking about! If nothing else, it makes a fun exercise to see if we can find correlations. We do the same thing with the Herald icons, of course, but with those we know they symbolize things in the chapter. With the epigraphs, not so much.
Also, good point about Kaladin’s attempt to help the parsh “runaway-slave” experience less painful than his own, and possibly being able to help them move past vengeance. Every bit as valid as anything we came up with!
Zodda @13 “What’s being served at the king’s feast? Pork. With gravy. Done. The food’s only here because we need something to do until Dalinar stabs a guy.”
I laughed. Fortunately not while drinking coffee.
The Highstorm is weaker in the west. Does that mean they have little Stormlight? That could explain why they don’t use fabrials.
The Parshendi first mention the rhythms here, but that doesn’t mean it is the first time they hear them. They just don’t know what they mean because they have been isolated from their own past. And it takes a while for Kaladin to win their trust. Why should they immediately discuss everything with a prisoner?
Regarding enslaving the parshmen – I too love this chapter for the way it gets you thinking. It is difficult, because we don’t have anything close a “real-world” example here since all of the slavery in our world has involved only humans. While the enslaving group may think of the slaves as less than as a way to justify the slavery, we don’t have the actual situation of an entirely different species who have souls and minds that are literally broken (for lack of a better way to phrase it).
How would real life humans react in this instance? It is hard to say, and I think the answer would differ greatly across cultures and generations, and even within cultures and generations down to the individual level. We have seen that Kaladin thinks of parshmen as animals (he seems to realize it himself throughout Oathbringer, realizing he says things like “being bred”, etc.), so I suppose a preserve idea is something they COULD have considered. Of course, Braid_Tug rightly pointed out the many issues with this since we know the parshmen are not animals. Plus, if they are looking at the parshmen as animals, and we know they are reproducing, are Rosharans then going to start having controlled hunts the way we do in the US for deer on nature preserves? What a disturbing and horrifying thought.
The history of the parshmen just makes me so sad. Granted we don’t know many details, but from what I have seen it looks like this. Losing their home to invading humans, they turn to Odium, who drives them to murder and be murdered in unimaginable numbers. This cycle continues on and on until a piece of their souls is ripped out, which from the group of parshmen Kaladin is with seemed to put them in a perpetual mental haze. Now they have clear minds and complete souls once more, just to find themselves enslaved. I REALLY dislike Venli, but this horrific history is enough to make me root for even her to find a way to free the parshmen from Odium and negotiate actual equality. I would be even happier if it ends up being Thude or Rlain, though. Especially Rlain, who is tied with Rock as my favorite member of Bridge 4.
Regarding the flashbacks, I too found young!Navini to be repulsive but in a sadly expected way. Many of us in the modern world get this nasty behavior out of our system, so to speak, in school. It doesn’t seem like they have such a schooling system in Roshar, so this would all be happening in adult society without any oversight. I also was disgusted at the way they leap from different culture/dress to “exotic in the bedroom”. Since we all know that is the only thing a wife can offer in a marriage (*eye roll*). It was the kind of sexism I didn’t necessarily expect to see on Roshar where husbands and wives actually do seem to bring differing skills to marriage based on men not being able to read, research, etc., so it was particularly jarring and seemed particularly offensive to me.
William the Conqueror? I don’t know if he campaigned into Scotland or Wales or if so, if he finished those campaigns. One difficulty with the conqueror question is finding sufficiently successful conquerors. Hitler and Napoleon might have stopped if they’d knocked off Russia and Great Britain but they never managed it.
@21 Wetlandrnw
No worries. To each their own.
@25 noblehunter
That was the point I was going for with Napoleon, Hitler and Alexander the Great. They didn’t know when to stop. Two of which should have known to stop at Russia but didn’t and their empire collapsed as result.
The hardest part of trying to stop conquering, once you start, is convincing your neighbors you don’t want to conquer them.
Halfway through typing that sentence I realized how well it applies to Dalinar in this book.
@27 John
LOL, that is a very good point! lolol
There were Bondsmith’s before most of the Radiants quit. Perhaps the storm striders are a remnant of their work in the ongoing conflict against the fused.
I know I would want my own rock giants if the enemy had them. I could imagine the Stormfather scooping them up to protect them if they didn’t have anywhere to go. Or a dying/retiring Bondsmith sending them into the storm to keep them hidden and well fed with stormlight.
In Dalinar’s defense, we did recently discuss how “wine” on roshar is often strong liquor. There’s a long tradition of using strong spirits to disinfect surgical tools….still barbaric, but at least he’s practical
@19 cultures compete and the best culture wins just like in other aspects of life. Believing your culture is best and trying to spread it isn’t an outright wrong. Forcing it on others is different but giving a choice – which is all I would say Brandon was doing – is not a problem. On the slavery/genocide – we are forgetting the fact these parshman were at war and had to be stopped and then they should be made to help take care of themselves. Things are not as muddy here as even our intrepid rereaders are making it and Lord of the Rings (as talked about in the silmarillion reread) isn’t as black and white as they are acting like either….
L: Oh yeah… I’d forgotten that Jasnah had assassins… Interesting that the quote specifically says the ALETHI way, though. That implies, at least to me, both men and women. Maybe the ladies just aren’t letting the men in on this little facet of their own personal Daes Dae’mar.
Haha!! WoT reference! (sorry I had to)
I love this flashback. I have loved it when I heard Brandon read it, I have loved when I read it in Unfettered II and I am still loving it.
I don’t however think much of young Dalinar nor young Navani. This chapter single-handily made it hard, for me, to actually like Navani: I really stuggled, after reading it, with her character. I am with Alice in here: she was mean. She called Evi “vapid” after a few hours spent in her company which most likely were Evi’s first encountering of the Alethi culture. Though, Navani’s behavior isn’t out of norm for Alethi: Alethi do think their culture is superior, their people are superior and do look down on pretty much everyone else. This is also stated, later in the book, when Adolin becomes physical with Shallan: everyone whispers in his back saying his Western heritage is to blame for his inappropriate behavior.
Hence, Navani, Ialai, they definitely were the mean girls. They definitely picked on Evi which brings me to my next point.
How desperate much Evi/Toh have been to actually link themselves to those people? It is obvious they do not like the Alethi, they are out of the place, they find them repulsive and barbarous, hence what was it which was so dire which had them try to make an alliance with them? They say they ran away from their kin. But WHY? Why did they steal the family Shardplate (presumably) and ran away trying to find warriors to protect them? Was the family after because they stole the Plate or did Evi/Toh stole the Plate because their family was after them? In other words, which came first, the Plate or the conflict? And WHY?
Also, am I the only one wondering how high ranked Evi/Toh actually were? Their family had in their possession one of the few Plate in Rira. They weren’t peasants. Who were they? How closely related were they to the ruling families?
I feel Brandon has barely scratch the top of the Evi mystery within OB.
On the side notes, I don’t think Adolin is attracted to Shallan because he finds her exotic nor physically different. I think he is attracted to her for two other reasons:
1) She has his mother’s figure which would be attractive to him, but not exotic.
2) She doesn’t have black hair. Adolin is self-conscious about his hair, he ponders on why Alethi dismissed light hair so easily and asks himself what is wrong with it. The fact he is a blond head in a sea of black does matter, to him. Hence Shallan is different from the Alethi, true, but she is different in the same way Adolin is different.
3) She looks more like him than your average Alethi women.
So while Shallan is different from most Alethi women, so is Adolin different from most Alethi men. Hence, when Adolin sees Shallan’s red hair with not a single black hair, he thinks on how it is “more like his own”.
These are my two cents anyway.
This is the only Dalinar flashback chapter I didn’t dislike (though I liked the scene when he meets newborn Adolin), but boy do I enjoy it. He’s so oblivious to his casual badassery and barbarity. I laugh every time at “What? He wasn’t going to drink the wine he’d washed the blood into. He wasn’t a barbarian.”
I’m also especially amused that he “growled” at the servant who tried to take away his steak, and imagine him sounding just like a dog.
It all wouldn’t be half as funny if it was a deliberate act or persona calculated to shock. (Incidentally, I feel this way about the supremely hilarious Bands of Mourning scene where five wonderfully weird people obliviously shock their poor innkeeper speechless by being themselves).
Sadly, we’re going to see a darker side of his determination to get what he wants, regardless of the cost to himself and others. Which means I can’t completely enjoy the chapter, because Evi arrives. Run away, Evi! Don’t marry him! Argh, it’s so frustrating when fictional characters don’t listen to me. :-p
Sanderson’s penchant for writing Perfectly Arranged Marriages got subverted here. Sigh.
I wonder exactly what Alethi consider “exotic in the bedroom.” Taboo acts involving a safehand, probably, whatever those might be.
I liked Ialai savoring “masculine” food, and thought her and Torol sharing a chair was kind of cute.
Dallinar is unlucky he couldn’t make his Shardblade into an eating-knife, like Lift’s living Shardfork.
@33: “How desperate much Evi/Toh have been to actually link themselves to those people? It is obvious they do not like the Alethi, they are out of the place, they find them repulsive and barbarous, hence what was it which was so dire which had them try to make an alliance with them?” I somehow hadn’t thought of it before, but now I’m reminded of Viserys Targaryen selling Danaerys in marriage to Khal Drogo, which went approximately as well as this one.
Evi is a lot stronger than all of the in world characters realize. She was literally a vagabond (with a Shardplate that she had no real control over. It seemed that her Toh had the control over it while negotiating the dowry (which it was a key part of). She was stuck in a strange land with different customs and different religion. It appears that she was left handed. Thus, she had to teach herself how to do everything with her off-hand. She initially had no friend. Her husband only married her because a) he was ordered to do so by the King (his brother); and b) as a means of trying to forget he loved Navani (who happened to be married to his brother, the King).
Yet she was able to raise both of her sons to be polite and considerate boys (they were still boys when she died). She gave them a good foundation that stuck with them as they grew. I wonder if Renarian would have been more socially adept if Evi had not died. After her death, we get hints the only person who took some time to try to relate to him was Jasnah. Yet she herself is not the bastion of warmth. Or at least, she presents an outward shield that Brandon has yet to let the reader see lowered for more than a fleeting glance.
Alice – if SA were a chronicle of real life, then I think the escaped listeners (those who did not transform into Stormform) would have died. But this is a story. Good authors (and I consider Brandon a good one) find ways to keep things like that group of characters in his back pocket. They always seem to pop up when you least expect it. My theory (if anybody cares) is that they reached some place that had an opening to an underground bunker like those we saw in the war camps. Where Veil first met the Ghostbloods. The mention of a underground bunker (which Shallan thought was there long before the war camp was) is too juicy of a low hanging piece of fruit for Brandon not to pluck in a later book.
Lyndsey said/asked: “he doesn’t seem like the type to be a successful diplomat. He’s just… cruel and heartless! Don’t you need to have some empathy in order to negotiate successfully?”
If only this were a forum to talk about current, RL politics. Ah, but it is not. I guess the less said, the better.
Alice asked: “It makes me wonder about what happens when Gavilar conquers a princedom by killing the highprince, though. Does his next of kin take over, as long as he’ll swear fealty? Or do they give it to someone who supports them, and just claim right of something-or-other to say, “Well, this guy is descended from Sunmaker too”
Alice, I think it can be either. We know that Gavilar and Dalinar started as a lower branch of their House. Yet within a short time, they killed those who had better claims. Yet in WoR, Sadeas asked Ialai to draft a list of potential “friends” who they could install as new Highprinces when Dalinar and those Highprinces that went on the Narak expedition did not return (or so Sadeas assumed would happen)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Okay, so I really have a love/hate relationship with this flashback chapter. I love it for all the reasons that everyone has already talked about. The understated oblivious humor in everything Young!Dalinar does is so fun to read. But to me it seems to be SO out of character. Like Sanderson wants to have some fun with this younger character and it was pre-released for people to get a peek at so give them something fun. But it seems like a totally different version of Young!Dalinar than we see in any of the other flashbacks. He is the usual reckless and blockheaded warrior as in the others, but to me something feels ‘off’ about it.
I do like the reveal when we see Evi for the first time. Those Kholin boys either want the perfection of their own culture or something completely unique and exotic. And as a left handed woman, I totally feel for Evi. Which is why I haven’t tried a havah for cosplay
As someone with a history degree- empires that aren’t actively growing are becoming stagnant and shrinking or shattering. That can happen over a single ruler’s lifetime (Alexander) or more gradually (Roman empire). There isn’t a lot of middle ground though. But to expand your empire to the natural/historical borders of your homeland and hold that isn’t as difficult/unusual. See Western European history: lots of border skirmishes and small to large wars over small pieces of land with the core of the countries unchanged for centuries.
Ch 20: there are no easy answers when it comes to the Parsh. As Braid tug says, there is no way a reservation system would have kept them alive for all the centuries since they lost their abilities. But enslaving them all or killing them all aren’t good choices either. Luckily in this instance it’s fiction and far into the past. Our own history could use the same amount of study and thought as well I think
These scenes with Kaladin and the Singers are gut punch chapters for me. They were when I first read it. They were when I did my reread. They still are, both for the questions they raise and for what is forthcoming, the disaster of Kholinar. And although I haven’t commented much on the topic I have spent some mental energy on it. And the question occurred to me, if the Singers of the Recreance had a choice in the matter, if they had known beforehand that the removal of their Gods would lobotomise their future progeny, what would they have wanted? As we see from the Listeners, serving under the Fused was unpleasant enough that they abandoned all forms of power, keeping only Mateform and Dullform. I believe it was mentioned in some of their songs that it would be better that they should die than to reconnect with their Gods (could be mistaken). Obviously the rest of the species did not make that choice, they elected to keep fighting. Or at least that’s effectively what happened; I’m not sure exactly how much free will they would have now that we know how the Fused operate. And have the Fused always operated in a way that wiped out their hosts completely or was it a shared consciousness in the past?
We as readers don’t have the complete picture obviously, but we do know that the ancestors ride their people hard. The current Singers are as enslaved now as they ever were as Parshmen and they know it. They are starting to get a sense of comparison; they can now judge which is worse. Soon they may have to face the same choice their ancestors made. The existence of Venli gives me hope that she’ll open up another way, one that isn’t so tragic as the choices they’ve had since humanity came to Roshar.
But back to the original question. What would those ancient Singers have chosen for their children? The extinction that was denied them or the lobotomised slavery that they received? I guess it depends on their species imperatives. If they were hopeful that somehow they could escape the tangles fate handed them with callus humanity on one side and horrible Gods on the other they may have chosen the slavery route. If they felt there was no way out could they have chosen annihilation instead? I’m pretty sure humanity would choose to survive 10 times out of 10 if the roles were reversed but would the Singers?
@30 MDNY
And from what we know of Dalinar, the stuff he likes to drink can peel off paint lol
@31 dwcole
I am sorry but I have to disagree with you here because I think the mentality of “the best culture wins” is not entirely accurate. A culture can “win” not just because their practices are “better” nor more “beneficial”. A culture can “win” because they may happen to have technological superiority. The culture could happen to have technological superiority because they happen to start in a location with abundant resources. Or in a location isolated so less fear of invasion. So a culture could believe in ritual sacrifice or cannibalism and still theoretically “win”. So although I agree spreading your culture is not inherently wrong, I disagree that a culture can be viewed as “best” or that a culture can “win”. All cultures should be respected on their merits, regardless whether they be religious in origin or otherwise.
@32 flamespren
My personal take on the assassination thing is that both men and women did it, but it wasn’t overtly viewed as acceptable. Storms Gavilar assumes Restares, another man, sent the assassin in white. So I feel it is something done, but not admitted to.
@36 Stormlightchick
I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly the later flashback chapters jump greater and greater time leaps. So the first few are relatively close, but the later Dalinar has matured a lot. He still has his vices and his berserker moments, but he has grown from a reckless blockheaded warrior to a general and military tactician. So I think that is the reason for the later change.
So I just had a thought regarding the parsh. The conflict we keep all coming into is the problem that the parsh cannot care for themselves. My question is, did any of the radiants, after tearing away their ability to transform, attempt to find a follow up solution. So basically try to return sapience to the parsh without connecting them to Odium and start a dialogue gradually. They “won”, so they would have the time. But maybe they did try and never found a way to. Guess RAFO. lol.
@37 EvilMonkey
Awesome post!
OK, so here are some quick thoughts:
Speaking of “geometrical figure spren”, we can’t forget that humans in the physical see only parts of spren – which makes me think, incidentally, that most spren are partly in both realms. Which may explain how Rock sees some unbonded honorspren, which seem to retain their intellectual faculties and even drink stormlight from a proferred gem(!), later in Part 2. Anyway, we already know that some emotion spren – like anger and anticipation, don’t look geopmetrical in physical realm, whereas “arrowheads” that seem to have something to do with gravitation kinda do.
I’d have to note here that Navani and Ialai aren’t actually wrong re: Reshi wardrobe here, despite being somewhat mean, since we have seen confirmation through Rysn’s PoV when she visited there. Also, in Navai’s defence, Dalinar did freeze her out as soon as he noticed Gavilar’s interest in her _and_ being Alethi, she may not quite recognize Evi’s type of intelligence. Evi is neither scholarly nor witty, like Alethi women are supposed to be.
I can’t wait to find out what Evi and Toh were escaping from. Also, Soulcasters are not like normal fabrials and, in fact, can’t be replicated by “modern” fabrial science. It is very interesting – and strange that there are none in the Western part of Roshar, as well as few shards, given Dalinar’s vision of the events at the Feverstone Keep, which was situated not far from the then- and current Iri capital of Ral Elorim.
Speaking of the parshmen – while there are some obvious parallels to RL oppression, there were supposedly experiments conducted by the scholars that proved that left to themselves, they would just sit around passively and starve. And since none of the Rosharan human civilzations are are a communist utopia, it would have been a bit unrealistic to expect that humans would feed and protect parshmen if they couldn’t profit by it, when they wouldn’t even do so for their own.
And the tragedy of it is, that if we look on th Listener epigraphs in WoR, as well as some snippets from eshonai’s PoVs, it becomes clear that Bo-Ado-Mishram had the parsh already enslaved and somehow deprived them of ability to change forms – _except_ with her playing an intermediary. And that she used to force forms on the parsh without their consent. The Lost Legion’s discovery of the dullform was also the first step on the path to re-discovery of how to assume forms independantly of the BAM, as well as escape from slavery.
Which only makes it more complicated to determine culpability – Melishi and Co. only wanted to stop transformations into Odium-forms, which they hoped would lead to peace, when they trapped BAM. But I always wondered about parsh children when it happened – in WoR we learned that the Listener children went into highstorm to change at a certain age – does it mean that they don’t bond spren until then? And if, so shouldn’t they have been spared the lobotomy, lacking Connection to BAM?
Oh, and one last thing – how the heck does Kaladin know how to make stone tools?! We didn’t see Alethi using them ever, they have steel and bronze. And it takes time to learn to do it.
@39 Isilel
Maybe that was part of survival training in the army? Just making a guess as to why Kaladin knows how to make stone tools
I have also wondered what Toh and Evi were running from. I feel they have to be part of the Rira royal line and were maybe considered competition for the thrown. My guess is this will somehow come up more with Renarin than about Adolin. I have no memory of Renarin’s hair color at the moment but l also don’t recall any remarks about his mixed heritage just about his current mental state.
I like this view of the Younges!. This view of them in a social situation gives us more cultural background than any of the more violent flash backs. I’m glad my 20 something self isn’t still around and glad I’ve changed my views and actions since then. Navani wasn’t at her best but neither were any of the rest of them.
As for the Parshmen, this would be similar to if the Allies, after WWII, had somehow been able to turn all the Germans into barely functioning individuals. The question of what to do with them would probably have started another war. They couldn’t be left in mass ( ala the game preserve idea) in Germany. Perhaps they would have been split up and shipped to all the different winning countries just as the Parshmen seemed to be. Some situations have no good solution, only less horrible options.
@41 goddessimho
Although I agree it is likely that Evi and Toh have high social standing in Iri, I do not believe this is the only possibility. Different countries handle their shards in different ways. Alethi do pass them down and tend to have them with noble families. The Thaylans if I recall correctly have the government own them, and they lease them out to certain individuals trained in their use to protect the crown. I do not believe we have information yet on how the Iri handle their shards, so it could be the Alethi way, the Thaylan way, or an entirely different way than we have heard yet. At least that’s my take away.
@37 I have a feeling the recreance happened at almost the same exact time the false desolation ended which would be why they didn’t look for other alternatives plus just getting over centuries long war would make you hate your enemies quite a bit. On top of that after being nearly destroyed they would need the labor to help rebuild which is probably what it started as then turned into slavery
@41: May I ask why Renarin would be more involved in a potential Riran inheritance crisis than Adolin? Adolin is the eldest and the one who actually looks the most like his mother. As for Renarin’s hair, it is said he has some blond in them, but not as much as his brother. When Dalinar thinks of Evi, after she dies, he usually links her to Adolin who’s handsome (Dalinar implies Adolin gets his good looks from his mother) and presumably has her eyes (not clear if he does) and her smile (definitely).
Also, Adolin is the one who actually owns the stolen Plate, not Renarin. I say if one of the boys is involved in this, it ought to be Adolin. He’s also the one having the most “Westerner’s oriented” behavior and the one who’s overall, the most like Evi. In the end of OB, other Alethi think of Adolin as a Westerner because of how he behaves with Shallan. His mixed heritage is mentioned here, but it is never mentioned with Renarin. It is only heavily implied he is incredibly smart, he was told so by apparently everyone from the time he could walk. He has slender limbs which is akin to Riran physical built, but it stops there. He doesn’t have Adolin’s warmth and craving for physical contacts. He is never described as handsome. His eyes are sapphire blue and not light blue like Adolin’s: so one of the boys does not have Evi’s eyes. It is unclear which one has her, but it is implied, at some point, it may be Adolin, but it could turn out to be Renarin.
So yeah, each time I think of a potential Riran arc, I think of Adolin being involved in it and/or Dalinar, never Renarin. When I think of Renarin, I think he may be involved with the Diagram and/or Odium’s Champion because of the corrupted nature of his spren.
Re: Navani – My opinion of Navani has never changed. I never liked her. And yes, she is a mean girl. And like what Alice said, if her feelings for Evi is jealousy, then it as repellent as being a mean girl.
Even in TWoK and WoR, Navani had shown her meanness towards Evi. I guess that’s why I never liked her. Evi has been dead for a long time. Yet, Navani badmouths her or give Evi backhanded compliments. I wish I have the time to research exact quotes but I don’t. From those two earlier books, it just stuck in my mind that Navani is this manipulative person. I know that many disagree with that assessment. I just can’t help but feel that Navani though Navani might have real feelings for Dalinar, she actually seduced him or manipulated him because Navani just wants to be the top dog or b*tch (the proper term for a female dog but I don’t want to be flagged for using a bad word, though it is appropriate in this case). Navani just rubbed the wrong way when she speaks of Evi in a bad light. You don’t speak ill of the dead unless that person is Hitler.
Anyway, for those who feels that Navani was a mean girl or a jealous woman, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to my opinion of Navani.
As for Adolin – Gepeto is right. Adolin got his looks from his mother. In WoR, Shallan mentioned that Dalinar’s face is “unfortunate”. So, I guess that means he is not handsome. So unlike Adolin who just happen to be the modern equivalent of having the looks of a Calvin Klein underwear model. [Hello Jaime Dornan, Mark Wahlberg and Antonio Sabato, Jr., though in my imagination, Adolin is more like Harry Styles. :-)]
@45: There is a better quote in OB with respect to Adolin’s physical look. In the flashback where Dalinar is mean to 15 years old Adolin, Dalinar first reflects on his son’s physical appearance. He says, at fifteen, Adolin has grown tall and handsome, specifying he got the former from him. It is implies he got the later from Evi.
On the matter of this stolen Shardplate… Toh mentions how the majority of known Shards are owned by either Alethkar and Jah Keved, smaller countries such as Rira (or perhaps he said Iriali, I do not recall right) not getting their share. Later in OB, Adolin states Thaylenah owning three Shards was a lot of wealth for such a small country.
Hence, how many Shard can possible own a small country on the verge of being annexed to a larger one such as Rira? If three is a lot for a small kingdom, then could it be the reason this particular Plate is so important because it was Rira’s ONLY Plate? And if this is the case, then the family owning it must be very powerful indeed. Powerful enough Evi/Toh crossed the entire known world seeking the protection of the most feared country in Roshar and once there, knocking on the door of the most barbarous warriors they could find.
And why is the Iriali Queen suddenly interested in this particular Plate? Her ultimatum was odd to me… It was so long ago and, as far as we know, Dalinar doesn’t own Evi’s former Plate. We all remember how Evi used to own it, not Toh, a distinction Dalinar find unusual. We also remember how Toh argued for years over his sister’s marriage contract, trying to add more provisions… What could he have possibly argued on which took so long to reach an agreement? Could it be it was the Plate’s ownership? If this Plate is a family heirloom, as I suspect it is, if the family owning one of the only Shards in Rira was highly important, as I also suspect they were, then surely there was a mater of not wanting to transfer the ownership of the Plate to Dalinar nor the Kholins…
And within the lil’Adolin flashback, was does 4 years old Adolin asks his daddy? When can he have HIS Shardplate. Not when Dalinar would pass down his second Plate to him. No, he referred to the Plate as HIS Plate.
My personal suspicions are Dalinar never legally owned this Plate. Evi did. Then the ownership was transferred to Evi’s firstborn son, hence staying within the same Riran bloodline. If I push my speculations further (because this is fun, I may be TOTALLY wrong here), then it may be the reason the Iriali Queen wants this Plate so badly is because it would give Iriali claims to Rira, to officially swallow it.
Hence, Evi/Toh may have been very high ranked. Something happened out there to have them run away with their heirloom. Did they fear the Plate would be taken away from them? Did they fear to lose it? My thoughts are, the Plate wasn’t just insurance to secure a future life. Why take away something valuable which would make others hunt them? Why, why, WHY?
I am thus suspecting Evi/Toh didn’t steel the Plate: they protected it. They took it away from those wanting to take it away from them and they made sure it remained within their bloodline by not giving it to Dalinar nor Gavilar. They gave it to Adolin. The heir. Of something. Which isn’t a princedom or an Alethi throne.
I have mentioned before, I find it interesting that for some, Navani being briefly catty decades earlier makes her more unlikeable than the several multiple murderers we have as protagonists. Including her daughter.
I have mentioned before, I find it interesting that for some, Navani being briefly catty decades earlier makes her more unlikeable than the several multiple murderers we have as protagonists. Including her daughter.
@47: Carl, your analogy is spot on. I never thought of it in those terms. Why do readers have an easier time feeling sympathy for Jasnah, who’s arguably thinks very highly of herself, than Navani?
You raise a valid question and I feel there is room to dig further to understand how is it our minds seem to wrap up unfavorably around Navani’s character. And why do they wrap up favorably around Jasnah.
@47, @48 Jasnah is quite forward concerning her motivations, her philosophical view (e.g. the murders in Kharbranth) etc.. Regarding Navani there is some kind of uncertainty. For me the scene where Adolin visits Galant shows that Navani cannot be fully trusted. Adolin says something like you are as bad as Navani. You come running as you smell the treats. (sorry, I don’t have my book with me, thus no exact quote, but I hope I can trust my memory and don’t mix up names). I do not favor murderers over untrustworthy people. But I can better relate to Jasnah as I seem to know her better than Navani. (I hope my squabbling makes some sense. My English is not enough to express myself in a clear way.)
Why does liking sweets make Navani untrustworthy?
I never read Navani as manipulate. Manipulation implies sneakiness. And I don’t see Navani as sneaky in any way, shape, form or fashion. I read her and Jasnah both as bulldozers. They know nearly from the outset what they want and have the strength of will to plow over objections or reasons why a thing cannot be done. Social conventions are things for other people. That’s called assertiveness and it’s a prized commodity in a leader. Being brilliant also helps; they are generally assertive about the right things. Has anyone noticed that if either one is a part of a group they are inevitably the leader of said group?
I think readers who read Navani as manipulative are maybe confusing the job for the person. For Navani works in politics, has had to swim with sharks like Ialai for over 20 years. Being twisty is a learned behavior; although it isn’t a natural fit she does well at it. Jasnah, who is just as assertive, works primarily in academia. As a working princess she undoubtedly has had to wade in the political stream but she’s never really had to swim in the deep end. She can emerge from her library, order an assassin and then dip off into her books again. Navani doesn’t have that option; her passion projects must always take a back seat to rule.
That being said, the mean girls act with Evi isn’t a good look for her regardless of her motivation. She loses points for those who like her and confirms to those who hate her that she’s no good. I think allowances must be made due to Alethi culture. Every action is made into a competition; that can be a poisonous environment among supposed allies. The smartest people, or at least those seen as the smartest among the women are well versed in the Art of Snark, are masters of the cutting comment, are verbal Jedi. Evi don’t fit that profile. No matter how smat she was (if her sons are any indication she probably was more than merely bright) she was never seen as smart because she never played a game that was as natural as breathing for any highborn Alethi lady. In fact, to not act like a mean girl would be to go against her character and the expected mores of the culture in which she came to adulthood. And although Navani never did understand Evi, eventually she got to like her.
@Marscha, actually your English is excellent and completely understandable.
I’m certainly not defending Navani’s being unthinkingly mean to Evi, but the Stormlight Archive is about redemption, surely. There are no flawless people on Roshar (that we’ve seen).
Marscha @50. I took Adolin’s comment that to mean something different. To an outsider not familiar with Gallant, it may have appeared that he recognized Adolin and was happy to see Adolin. But the complete picture (once you truly knew) Gallant is that he knows that when Adolin appears in this new area (Gallant’s field at Urithiru), Adolin will give Gallant sweets. Gallant likes these sweets. Adolin’ comment (half sarcastic, half true) meant that Gallant was not really happy to see Adolin just to see Adolin. He knows that Adolin will bring sweets and that is the real reason why Gallant is so excited to see Adolin.
Thus, I interpret Adolin’s statement about Navani in this context is that there is always an alternative motive in what Navani does. She thinks many steps ahead. For example, she did not learn the favorite fruit of the woman Adolin was courting in WoK because she wanted to do something nice for that girl. Rather, she wanted to find a way for Adolin to do something nice for the woman he was courting. Navani knows that Adolin’s courtships do not last very long. Thus, she was trying to give Adolin information to help him make the courtship works. The same analysis can be used to help explain why Navani would have agreed to the Adolin / Shallan casual (the same argument that Dalinar told Shallan). It the casual works, it takes Adolin off the market and it does not give Sadeas any further leverage as Shallan is not part of the then current political Alethi plots.
While some of Navani’s ulterior motives could be classified as manipulation, not all her ulterior motives are manipulations. The same way that Gallant being happy to see Adolin because Adolin will give him sweets rather than because it is Adolin himself does not mean that Gallant is manipulating Adolin.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@54: You bring an interesting analogy, not one I had thought of before. Gallant is happy to see Adolin not because he likes Adolin, but because Adolin brings sweets for him. If I were to transpose this metaphor to Navani, I would say Navani likes to see people not because she wants to see them, but because they have something for her. Hence, when she gives the fruits to Adolin to give to Danlan, her first goal wasn’t to help him in his courtship, it was to get rid of Adolin so she can be alone with Dalinar. She actually mentions this in the narrative and while, of course, the scene isn’t nearly as cold as I make it out to be, the fact remains Navani gave sweets to Adolin nor just for his own benefit, but because it benefited her.
This interpretation is dangerously close to the one @45 sheilagh makes… I wouldn’t call Navani manipulative, but the Adolin metaphor is interesting. Gallant doesn’t care about Adolin, he cares about what Adolin can give him. Does it mean Adolin believes Navani only cares for people for what they can give her?
@55: except Gallant, while more than a simple horse – Is still an animal. With a simple childlike joy in sweets and people who bring him sweets.
Navani is a complicated human adult, who is modivated by multiple reasons. This moment is not her best, but I don’t read it a jealousy. My guess is that Navani’s marriage is still good right now. It fell apart later. We don’t know when later.
Later, it sounds like her and Evi get along. Yet, like Andrew said, Evi does not enjoy the word play that is considered the height of female intelligence in this group.
There’s the comment of a fish will be seen as dumb if it’s judged on the ability to fly.
This is an example of the Alethi not being culturally sensitive. Not surprising in the terms of this story.
Maybe Navani would have been happier had she never married someone powerful. She clearly would rather fiddle with her fabrials instead of dealing with the various political machinations involved with being first Queen and then Consort to the 1st Bondsmith in several millennia. It’s a case of being careful what you aspire to.
Re: Navani – For some strange reason, Navani reminds me of Anne Boleyn, the second wife of Henry VIII who manipulated herself to be the Queen of England, She got rid of her sister Mary, who was actually Henry VIII’s mistress that time and made Henry break from the Catholic Church so that he could divorce Catherine of Aragon (his first wife) so that they could get married.
Does this sound somewhat familiar? Dalinar basically declared himself a heretic by marrying Navani. :-( The Vorin church was willing to look the other way when it came to Dalinar but the marriage was just something they cannot ignore.
As for Navani not being a murderer… chances are we just don’t have any proof. She was the Queen at one point in time. She would have ran a spy network just like all ladies of rank in Alethkar. There is no mention, but chances are she also employed assassins. My reason for saying this – Jasnah has to learn from someone. And there is a big chance that she learned from her mother.
Why did Navani return to the Shattered Plains. She said that is because Elhokar’s wife was capable and that she (Navani) felt useless over there. In my opinion, that’s bollocks. She could have placed herself nicely and did projects on her own over there without permission from the current Queen. After all, she did exactly that at the Shattered Plains.
The way I see it, Navani went back to the Shattered Plains because she needed to be on top of the heap again and Dalinar is an obvious choice. They have a history together. He is a widower and arguably, the most powerful warlord in the land. Convenient, isn’t it?
As for Jasnah, I like Jasnah because her actions are logical and makes sense. On one hand, I don’t like Sadeas because he is a mean SOB. Both are murderers. That said, because of the violent nature of the Alethi, being a murderer does not make you stand out.
Back to Navani – I started disliking her at TWoK. It was the moment she spoke ill of Evi. Oh, she worded it nicely, but it was a backhanded comment. That action was mean and uncalled for. That was also the time I suspected that she was going to take steps to trap Dalinar. Yes, I used the word “trap” as in tender trap. Of course, Dalinar was willing to be trapped. But, that is beside the point. It was still Navani manipulating the situation and circumstances so that she would always be near Dalinar.
As for Navani not being a murderer, I might not have proof that she is, but character assassination counts.
@sheiglagh, that isn’t the accepted history of Anne Boleyn or Henry Eight, and you impute not-actually-shown motivations for Navani, too. Interesting.
Something else to keep in mind (and I didn’t see it mentioned) is the age of Navani when she made the comment. She’s probably 17-19 years old, which places her at the ideal “mean girl” age. So yeah, she’s being a typical teenager where she clearly likes Dalinar a lot, so shes’ finding vacuous flaws in her “rival”. I honestly don’t think this says anything about her other than the fact that she’s a regular person with real feelings and flaws. I seriously doubt most of us didn’t badmouth a stranger in a private conversation with our friends at least once in their life, and probably more than once in highschool / college.
I do like the idea of Alethi women taking charge of spying and assassinations without the men really knowing about it or acknowledging it. And I think it makes perfect sense in the type of people they were based on and the type of society they were building. We know from WoR that any person who was inclined towards fighting was supposed to make their way to Alethkar, I’ll presume this includes women since back then there was no split. So you now have a lot of powerful women who enjoy fighting and who are supposed to give it up once a book comes out. I don’t think so. I think it’s way more likely that while they couldn’t resist it openly they would most definitely still find an outlet. And assassination fits.
Finally, on the subject of Parshmen, the ideal solution for humanity from a strictly survival standpoint should have been genocide. It’s not moral, or pretty or anything except effective. Any other solution they could come up with can eventually be undone (like it was) and that will only lead to more war and more deaths. This sort of stopgap solution is similar to a movie “villain” capturing the “hero” and leaving him tied up so he could eventually escape and stop him instead of simply and quickly killing him and avoiding any further complications. And we all know how those sort of movies end.
@56: Granted, Gallant is just a horse, a very smart one, but still just a horse. It is however Adolin who makes the metaphor, thinking Gallant’s behavior made him think of his aunt Navani. At first, I’ll admit I just thought he meant Navani likes sweets….. but I have to say if we push it farther, we could come up with all sorts of analogy.
I am not however sure we should be reading more into this scene than Navani liking treats, but for the sake of the exercise, it is interesting to go there.
I also agree Evi was shunned upon and called “unintelligent” due to her inability to rejoice into the warring culture of the Alethi, her compassion and her lack of desire to engage in word play. By their own accounts, she was dumb, but indeed looking at her sons, we know this isn’t true. Adolin, who takes the most after her, is far from dumb though if he were a woman, he’d be considered dumb because he has exactly the same mental inclination as his mother: he’s bad at word play, he’s not cunning and he’s not interested in scholarships nor fabrials. None of those however means he is dumb….
@57: Navani married Gavilar sometimes in between the first two flashbacks. Gavilar might not have been King then, but he was Highprince and he was trying to unite Alethkar. Navani knew who she was marrying though we have yet to read the full story.
@58: I am not versed in history but I am ill-at-ease at seeing Anne Boleyn being blamed for King Henry VIII decision to break from the Church and to divorce his first wife. Really. He is accountable for his own actions: the woman is not to blame. She is not the one who petitioned the Church for a divorce and if perhaps she was rooting for it, Henry VII is very much responsible for what he did. He, after all, killed all of his wife, so huh, sorry, but Anne’s the victim here, not the culprit no matter what her intentions might have been. She’s not the one who called the decisions.
So no, I don’t see the parallel with Navani. Nothing in her narrative suggests she marries Dalinar to up her social position, everything suggests she does it because she loves him. Now why she does, this is the story Brandon has yet to tell us.
@60: Navani was more like 25-26 years old in this scene, not 17-18. She was a mother and a wife and had been for some years. She was no teenager.
So first, turns out I was wrong regarding Evi’s plate. Earlier Navani comments on how Iri would not have a claim on it even if they did rule over Rira because it was an heirloom to a lighteyes of Rira. Dalinar also comments on how it is a petty grievance so if it was Rira’s only plate, I would think Dalinar would view it in a greater light. But that’s just my own thoughts
As to Navani, I do have a genuine question for Sheiglagh, Gepeto, and AndrewHB. This question is without agenda. I am genuinely curious of the three of your thoughts regarding these other scenarios. When Navani urges Evi to go see Dalinar and to bring Renarin and Adolin with her so they can spend time with their father, was she being manipulative then? When Navani helped raise Renarin with Jasnah after Evi passed, was she using that for selfish goals? When Navani thought Dalinar and Adolin had died at the Tower, and in tears drew the Justice Glyph, was that with a hidden agenda? I know this sounds like I am attacking, I truly am not. I am just curious in view of Navani’s comment about Evi in this scene, and Adolin’s comment to Gallant, does that color these other examples? Or was she genuine in those moments?
@62: If Evi’s Plate was not Rira’s only Plate, then how do you explain why it is said Taylenah has an abnormally high number of Shards for such a small kingdom… They have three. Rira is small too and politically unimportant. Toh comments on how the West doesn’t own many Shards. Hence, while not confirmed, it does seem possible the Plate might have been the only one Rira ever owned. Even if it isn’t the only Plate, it is one out of a very small number.
Dalinar does not care because he is Alethi: he spent a lifetime winning Shards. He doesn’t realize how unattainable they are for most people. Also, being Alethi, Dalinar considers the Plate belongs to his family now. The ramifications of Evi/Toh smuggling out of Rira is apparently lost on him and on us readers too, not knowing who they were. As far as he is concerned, he never stole the Plate and Evi had paperwork stating it belongs to her.
So why is the Iriali Queen bringing this up? We all know this is just a petty excuse to justify her not entering the coalition, but surely she must know she has no claim on it. If the Plate indeed belonged to Evi… then it rightfully belongs to Adolin now. So why do they want the Plate back in the West? To get another Shard, for sure, but could there be more to the story we haven’t heard yet?
Navani says Rira never been strong enough to claim the Plate back… but if it did belong to Evi… I guess Evi/Toh broke agreements their Plate was to serve the Riran crown or they actually were the Riran crown.
On the matter of Navani, I do not think she is being manipulative as I have stated within many previous posts. I however find the exercise of trying to read the Gallant scene, in light of Navani’s behavior in this chapter, interesting, even if it probably is totally wrong (and I think it is).
I would however point out there are absolutely no textual evidences which stipulate Navani helped raise Renarin or even Adolin. In the case of the later, it is only said his aunt/cousin saw fit he went to his lessons. In the case of the former, it is said he cried in Jasnah’s arms over his absent father. Not much else is known, but one story element I feel wasn’t well explained is the Adolin/Renarin relationship…. They grew up apart. They had the opportunity to develop a bond during childhood as Adolin spent years in Jah Keved while Renarin stayed in Kholinar. How could have they grown up close in those circumstances? Also, when and why was Adolin jealous of Renarin. Still scratching my head on this one.
@58 sheiglagh
No one “made” King Henry VIII do anything. He wanted a son, and Katherine couldn’t give him one. When the Catholic Church refused to give him a divorce, he decided that there was no point in maintaining relations with a Pope who wouldn’t do what he needed him to do. There were already plenty of Protestant sympathizers in England, and they were happy to encourage Henry to break with Rome.
Anne Boleyn is not responsible for any of this. If it hadn’t been her, it would have been some other young woman who could give Henry the male heir he wanted.
There’s nothing wrong with Navani wanting to marry Dalinar, and there’s nothing wrong with her wanting to have power and influence. It’s time to stop treating female ambition as inherently “manipulative” or “evil”, as though there was something wrong with capable women having goals and achieving them.
Gavilar murdered his way to being a highprince, then king of Alethkar. Dalinar murdered an entire city full of people. Yet somehow Navani is the bad person here because she’s a woman and she wants things.
Wait!!! The Plate belongs to Evi. Shallan comments, back in WoR, how Adolin’s Plate ownership papers were in perfect order, thanks to his mother. Adolin’s Plate background story is not missing: it is complete and available.
The Plate belongs to Evi. I think we got it backwards. The Plate ownership wasn’t transferred to Evi when they ran away from Rira, this is illogical: it always belonged to her. The Rirans must have had all of the legal ownership papers for their Plate, hence Gavilar would have never believed them nor taken them seriously. Two silly looking strangers say they have a Plate? Really?
They had proof. They had ownership. Gavilar wouldn’t have stolen a Plate. The Kholins are many things, but thieves is not one of them.
Dalinar reflects on how the Plate belonging to Evi must have been to bestow it to a husband…. so who was it Evi was supposed to marry back in Rira?
Evi/Toh ran away taking with them the Plate. WHY? Why not leave it behind? And why did they run away?
*** entering speculation mode ***
Because Evi had been forced to marry a man from another country which would have been the equivalent to giving away the Riran Plate to another nation without actually doing it… This man was Iriali.
Evi/Toh’s family plotted to give Rira away to Iriali by making the Plate a heirloom to be passed from wife to husband.
Hence they ran away, they smuggled the Plate to keep it from falling into Iriali hands. And they gave it to the Alethi instead probably because Alethkar is not a threat to Rira. A safe bet.
This is why Iriali wants it back now. The Plate means something, politically speaking.
*** exiting speculation mode ***
@63 Gepeto
Personally I am inclined to believe Dalinar. Considering him being a general for a good chunk of his life, knowing what kind of weapons another country could field would be important. I do recall Dalinar reacting highly when speaking to Navani about the half-shard shields. She comments on how Dalinar always thinks in terms of militarization. I tend to look at shardplate the way George RR Martin rendered dragons in Game of Thrones. They are like mini nukes. Using one completely changes the battlefield. They can be overcome, and can be lost, but they most certainly can change the tide of battle. This says to me its important to keep track of other nation’s plates. If Rira lost its only plate, then that would be a big blow to their military. I do not see Dalinar, who already appreciates the power of shardplate (using just two shardbearers to create a beach head in the shattered plains for instance), discounting the loss of a set if there was not other sets to back it up. So I think that is why he refers to it as a petty grievance. But again, that is just my own thoughts on the matter.
As to Navani caring for Renarin, I believe there was a scene where Dalinar is drunk and he thinks on how Navani and Jasnah are looking after Renarin but given the content, it will take me a little bit to locate it. Once I have found it I will post the quote. I was not saying you thought her manipulative, I just lumped you in with the other two because you found it interesting in seeing that scene with Gallant in another light, so I was curious if viewing that scene in a negative light could color the other scenes I mentioned.
Scath @40:
From what we have seen of Alethi armies, they don’t put much value on single soldiers’ ability to survive in the wilderness, so why should they waste time teaching them to make stone tools? And shouldn’t being able to make ones be a skill requiring significant time investment? I.e. not something that he could have quickly learned during his previous failed escapes from slavery.I mean, I wouldn’t expect say, ancient Romans from 1st century BC to be able to make stone tools – and metal seems at least as plentiful in Alethkar as it was there.
Gepeto:
Thaylenah has 8 shards, not 3. Maybe you mean 3 shardplates? Because they had 3 and 5, but I don’t remember which number was for plates and which for blades. I am not sure that Evi’s plate could have been owned in the same sort of deal as Thaylen shards are “owned” by the families of the guardians, since Toh stressed again and again that it was _Evi’s_ plate, despite her obviously not being trained to use it. But yes, it may well have been Rira’s only shardplate. We won’t fully understand the situation with it until we learn what prompted the siblings’ exile, though. Were they members of a deposed royal family? Or, perhaps the rule had stripped their family of their status and posessions because of rebellion/treason, which, in the eyes of Rirans would have made the shardplate no longer theirs and therefore their taking it abroad with them theft? I can’t wait to find out. Iri’s meddling with the matter of ownership when communicating with Dalinar was either a pretext or a power grab, nothing more.
Navani – IMHO she is about Dalinar’s age or slightly younger, so she is probably around 20 during this chapter, which yes, could have contributed to her flahs of mean-girliness. Jasnah was already born at this point, IIRC, but she must have been very young, as Dalinar has to remind himself of her existence. But Navani did help with Adolin and Renarin, when Evi spent half a year with Dalinar on his campaigns and they must have interacted in a friendly enough manner. Nor is there any indication anywhere that Navani ever had spy and assassin net – in fact, the Kholins would have been much better off in WoK and WoR if she had. Maybe it is not quite as ubiquitious as all that or a newer development, prompted by the unification of Alethkar, which made private little wars less feasible.
The mention of Anne Boleyn reminds me of this hilarious ditty from the Kingston Trio:
Dalinar disagrees:
Navani isn’t a bad person just because she is good at the political “games” her culture expects of lighteyed women. Why is being a bloodthirsty conqueror ok for men but having goals and being effective at reaching them is bad for women? If there is anything problematic about her it is that she likes fabrials, which enslave spren.
I still say Navani’s reputation for being manipulative comes from her being a brilliant politician. The problem with being a brilliant politician is that it colors every action taken, makes every genuine emotion look suspect from the observer perspective. And with good reason because there’s bleed over. When you are a heavy player in the political realm it’s difficult to shut off because of the awareness that someone is always watching. I theorize that in a kingdom less than one generation old it would be even harder to do. Alethi play the political game for blood. The flashbacks confirm this. Sadeas in WOK confirms this. At least a part of playing politics in this era, maybe a large part involves taking action to keep yourself alive, not just in power. Navani’s so called manipulative tendencies have as much to do with the preservation of herself and those she loves as it does trying to be top dog.
I think we can all agree that Navani isn’t stupid so let’s do a thought experiment. If Navani’s desires ran to naked ambition only, staying in Kholinar would have been her best course of action. She could run the place how she liked with no oversight and only one person with the rank to tell her no. As the Dowager Queen, a woman who has been fostering connections for 30 years and had 5 years holding the keys to the store, it would be easy for her to have her own fiefdom, unparalleled even if the armies left the Shattered Plains and came home as soon as WOK started. She’d be bulletproof at home but instead hits the plains. Okay, it could be argued that she loves the game and desired to be in the center of it all, the place where the true seat of power lies. Plausible, but then why court Dalinar? Sure he’s the most powerful person in Alethkar and unattached but courting him is unnecessary and weakens his position, thereby weakening her own influence. Elkohar as king could choose to lessen his trust in Dalinar based on the treatment of his mother and it’s never a good idea to anger the reigning monarch. Another entity it would be inadvisable to anger is the Vorin Church. Weak they may be but roused, they could be a force to be reckoned with, a force to rally behind. That may be worth the risk for an outsider trying to gain influence and trust from the elite but Navani is already at the top, is already trusted (at least trusted enough to be allowed to influence events), and is already at the center of things as soon as she walks in the door. Plus, consider my earlier statement. Alethi play politics for blood. Weakening the Blackthorn’s political position is a good way to get both him and her son knifed in the back. Navani isn’t stupid. She knows all this. Only love could make her take that risk anyway, even knowing the stakes.
Maybe Navani is as manipulative as some seem to believe. I don’t think it’s her natural state, more an adaptation due to environment but whatever. I object to the negative connotation the word implies. If the manipulative behavior practiced by her serve to prolong the lives of herself and several of our favorite characters, is that a bad thing? Does that mean she fails to show genuine emotion or that none of her motives are pure or of benefit for persons other than herself?
@67 Isilel
I am not sure what you mean? Where has that come up in the novels that the Alethi do not put value on a soldier surviving in the wildness? I know there are highstorms, but they do remark that there are ways to survive outside during them. Survival training is standard for every military I have ever heard of. Marines have guns, gps, and all sorts of other gadgets, yet they are trained how to make wooden spears for hunting/fishing, simple axes for chopping wood. Have you ever watched Bear Grylls? Personally I think it would make sense that Kaladin would have survival training.
@@@@@ EvilMonkey, Carl, dptullos, scath, et al. – Well stated. I am always afraid Brandon will take a turn with Navani, but I personally hope he doesn’t. I feel the option is there because we have the history of her political skill, but I read her love for her family (and especially for Dalinar) as genuine. Her ambition does not shock me. For some reason, it is common to see ambitious women as “less-than”, when in reality many women (like men) are ambitious. Even a woman who aspires to “only” be a mother has ambition (put in quotes because being a stay-at-home mom is commonly looked down upon, at least in the social circles I am in); motherhood is hard work, and traditionally female labor such as child raising is seen as being of less value by many in our society.
I love reading her and Dalinar working together as a team. From the flashbacks, we know that Dalinar is a man who needs a partner to lift him up and encourage the better parts of his nature. Evi was a good woman who did just this, and she was sometimes able to make headway when Dalinar was at his worst. Now that Cultivation’s pruned memories have returned, I personally believe Navani will be instrumental in supporting Dalinar in his journey as Bondsmith and as a man trying to live a good and honorable life.
Scath @71:
But Alethi have a completely different philosophy about their soldiers – particularly dark-eyed spearmen than US marines with their “army of one”, “no man left behind”, etc. If you remember, in Amaram’s army, they wouldn’t even evacuate wounded spearmen from the battlefield without exorbitant bribes from Kaladin, and he thought that it was, on the whole, a fairly well-organized army. We don’t know if they normally gathered and treated the dark-eyed wounded after the fighting was done either, etc. For them, a simple soldier is valuable only for as long as he is part of the unit/army, has his equipment, etc. In pre-modern times, when one army was defeated, actual losses in battles were low – usually no more than 10% of the losers’ numbers. But once the men had broken and run, abandoning their weapons and armor, etc. they were basically out of the game and the force that they used to be part of was considered destroyed – and for good reasons, as gathering, re-forming, re-equipping the scattered fugitives would have taken as much or more effort as/than just raising fresh forces.
Finally, making stone tools and weapons is a skill that shouldn’t be quick and easy to learn and there is likely skill involved in using them without damaging them either, given that they should be rather brittle, etc. And it is very implausible that Kaladin would have these skills.
VladZ @60,
Except that after the battle of Thaylenah we now know that the genocide of parshmen wouldn’t have really solved anything, because, unbeknowest even to the Heralds, Odium had a way to possess humans too! And IMHO, that’s likely how Ashyn got mostly destroyed. He doesn’t actually need the singers, he could have just played various human groups against each other. So, they would have committed this giant atrocity in the name of survival and gained nothing by it or worse. Because it wouldn’t surprise me if the singers turn out to be the key to the eventual solution of the Odium problem on Roshar.
Gepeto @63:
Well, who do you think was raising Renarin for half of each year when Evi was with Dalinar on a campaign? And it is certainly implied that after that initial visit when Adolin was very young, that he too spent most of his time at Kholinar until he was old enough to stay with Dalinar for extended periods of time. Ditto after Evi’s death and Dalinar’s return to the capital and descent into alcoholism. Plenty of time for Adolin and Renarin to spend time together and become close, too, if you take the above into account. Given their social position, there naturally would have been nurses and tutors for the boys too, but it doesn’t seem like any of them truly became life-long influences and mentors, whereas both young men are close with Navani and Jasnah. Kadash seemed like something along this vein for Adolin in WoK, but given the retcon in OB, he can no longer fulfill the role. I do think that Kholin family dynamic was pretty interesting while the boys were growing up – did Gavilar also try to pick up the slack? Ehlokar and Adolin didn’t seem particularly close, despite growing up in basically the same household – was there jealousy involved on the part of the elder cousin?
Speaking of eye colors – is it written anywhere what eye colors are typical for the Iriali? Though, Evi being a Riran, it may not directly apply to her, of course. Because Dalinar and his sons all have eyes various shades of blue, right? So, they may have both just taken after him in this feature.
Evi and Toh may have been attainted in Rira for whatever reason, which could have created a situation, where from Riran (and Iri) PoV her shardplate was “stolen” even if it had originally been her heirloom. Not that I believe that Iri Queen’s harping on it was anything but a pretext to refuse Dalinar. Though, going on a wild tangent, I have to wonder if Odium promising Iri the cache of shards that must have resulted from the events at Feverstone Keep may have been part of what swayed them into an alliance with him.
I am 100% with Navani Defense Force! There is nothing wrong with women being ambitious, even devious and pro-actively going for what they want. Dalinar’s flashbacks demonstrate that there was a life-long attraction between those 2, and that while Navani did originally chose Gavilar, there were excellent reasons for it, apart from the power considerations. In fact, IMHO it is all but certain that if young Navani and young Dalinar had gotten together, the people that they were then would have proven to be wrong for each other. And let me point out that it was _Dalinar_ who insisted on that marriage, so the responsibility for the fallout is all on him. Navani just wanted a romantic relationship, which everybody, including the ardents, would have been content to overlook. She is actually an anti-Boleyn in this sense!
@69: Well… This was Dalinar’s blunt assessment of the purpose of their war: to get the stuff other people owned, but we have enough inklings to figure out Gavilar’s purpose wasn’t so mercantile. Even if it were, winning stuff through war or battle is not the same as downright stealing. In other words, I somehow cannot picture Dalinar setting out to organize a heist to steal Shards from another man… This isn’t his way, hence when Evi/Toh came forward, I definitely this they had the right legal paperwork to state they do own a Shardplate. It is hinted in WoR such papers exist when Shallan uses the idea of drawing the backstory for each Shard as a pretext to moon over Adolin fighting. I wondered about this scene when I found out the Plate was stolen, if it really were stolen, then how is it its full backstory is in order and well-drawn by Evi?
On Navani, I think our discussion is slowly reaching what may be the issue some have with her character. Words such ambitious, seductress and manipulative draw a portrait which seems fundamentally different than the one the book is suggesting, so why is it minds easily wrap themselves around them? Jasnah is ambitious and few readers have reacted negatively to her character, so is it the combination of having ambitions combined to wanting to be with the man she loves which makes Navani tip the other side of the balance platter? Is it an ill-at-ease over seeing a woman who knows what she wants, Dalinar, and takes the mean to seduce him? When male characters do it, no one voices out a thought, but when Navani goes to the Shattered Plains with the intend to re-kinkle her relationship with Dalinar, she is seen in a negative light,
Now, I need to state, I do not personally believe Navani is manipulative nor a seductress nor do I view her in any negative light. I raised the discussion because I felt it was a relevant and interesting topic to be have, this week and well, seeing the number of responses, it worked :-) I do believe Navani loves her family and has no hidden agenda other supporting the man she loves while continuing to work on her personal projects.
I however feel her behavior in this chapter, her bad words about Evi in WoK do illustrate one of her character flaw: she is impatient with people she considers of inferior intellect. Her vision of intellect is also restricted: it is either political astuteness or scholarship interest mostly if it revolves around fabrial. Dalinar comments on this in OB, so it definitely is one of her flaws. She can be dismissive, she can be rude to people with intellects which do not align with hers, especially if they are women. Like what she does with Evi, like how she completely dismissed Adolin’s mental capacities, but likely was one of those who praised Renarin’s.
On Navani raising Renarin for @73: Truth is not much is said in the book. Hence, while it is probable Navani did raise Renarin while Evi was away, it still isn’t explicitly stated. We are guessing it must have been the case, but truth is we have no textual indications Navani was involved into more than ensuring her nephews had lessons. As I said, it is quite probable there was more, but again, it is not stated, unless I missed it.
Where is it implied Adolin spent time in Kholinar after his first visit? It is instead stated he spent years in Jah Keved with Dalinar which implies he perhaps never came back to Kholinar during this time period. So even if his years in Jah Keved started when he was older, Renarin would have still be a small child. Either way, the brothers did not spend their childhood together, they never had those years of bonding which usually happen during childhood days to develop a bond. They presumably had no relationship one towards the other until Adolin got back to Kholinar for real. He was 12. A bit late to start developing deep brotherhood bonding especially given 4 years old Adolin didn’t seem to care much about his baby brother.
Plenty of time after this for the boys to grow closer? Yes, I guess this is true, but on the day Adolin made his way back to Kholinar, the brothers would have basically be strangers. They wouldn’t know each other: not after spending their formatting years apart from each other. And Adolin is the son which got Dalinar’s attention. The one who is everything Renarin wants to be but isn’t. In light of OB, I find it has become harder to rationalize their relationship: where does it come from? Nurses, tutors? As you say, there was no mention of anyone significant. And how about Renarin’s autism? How is Adolin so used to it if he wasn’t really confronted to it until he got much older? It is one thing to grew up with a sibling disability, it is quite another to come back after having been away for years to realize your younger brother is not just quite like everyone else. I find much is left unexplained here and following OB, I find it harder understand it. Before, it was easy: father was off warring, brothers grew up close. Now we know this isn’t exactly how it happened.
Evi and Toh needed a very strong reason to run away with a Shardplate. Just because “they felt like it” is not enough. They were shy and none confrontational. They aren’t rebels at heart nor warriors. They are the last persons you’d expect to purposefully steal a Plate and smuggle it outside of Rira, halfway across the world to Alethkar. So while it may be there is nothing to the story, I doubt it. They had a reason to do what they did and it must have been a really, really, really strong one. And I bet the Iriali Queen knows exactly why.
Ever asked yourself why the Rirans were willing to have Evi marry Dalinar, a barbarous man which both horrified and scarred them? Why did they both feel it was acceptable for Evi to literally sacrifice herself to marry this man? Why? Because the alternative was probably worst. And somehow, I do think it involves Iri even if the Plate is most likely a pretext, it seems like an odd time to bring back a feud old by a few decades.
On Alethi armies: Anyone ever wondered why Amaram wasted Tien away? I mean,within each army, for one fighting soldier, there probably is one worker man/woman. Armorers, steelworkers, cooks, carpenters were likely in high demand. Armies have various need and one of them is to maintain, fabricate and repair carts, wagons, bows, arrows, tasks which require the skills of a carpenter. Hence why is it Tien, with his three years as a carpenters apprentice, was made a foot soldier when it would have been more profitable to send him to work with the armies carpenters? How often must it be citylords were willing to give away their skilled workers to the army? Tien should have been a prized catch! Not a kid to be wasted… His physic is such he would have never made a good soldier, so why not use his real skill to the army’s benefit?
How is it the Alethi armies are do feared and proficient when they are completely unable to cage talent? When they waste away skilled worked by having them carry lances when they could have add them to their team of skilled workers?
The same is true for Kaladin. A surgeon’s apprentice is rare, rarer than a carpenter. Why wasn’t he automatically send to the surgeons to work with them is baffling. He too was wasted away even if it turned out well for him.
@73 Isilel
Personally I feel that is a whole lot of assumptions to support your supposition. In Amaram’s army, the light eyes had priority but they still did care for dark eyes. Kaladin’s bribe wasn’t so they got attention at all, but that his crew got attention first over other dark eyes. Also don’t forget Amaram’s army was the dregs. Any soldier of worth was sent off to the Shattered Plains. So even if that particular army didn’t value their soldier’s lives, that does not mean overall they do not. There are basic training requirements for all recruits regardless who’s command you ultimately get assigned under that comes first before you are even sent into combat. In my opinion it is a greater set of hurtles to over come to assume the Alethi do not provide their soldiers survival training for if they are separated from the main military body, that making simple tools for hunting and wood gathering is so complicated that Kaladin could not possibly know how to do so, just so that Kaladin having these skills to be considered implausible.
Regarding who took care of Renarin I will include that in my response to Gepeto.
The typical eye color for Iriali is golden/yellow. It is mentioned in Ym’s interlude I believe
@74 Gepeto
Page 662 of Oathbringer, Evi mentions they have been at it for 7 years. This is when they were at the Jah Keved keep. Page 660 Dalinar comments to himself how Renarin was unfit for battle and spent most of his time at Kholinar. Evi spent half the year back with Renarin at Kholinar. Also on page 660 Dalinar remarks to himself that Adolin spends part of the year in Kholinar, to drill with the swordmasters, and receive formal training in diplomacy. So, that means that for 3.5 years worth, Renarin goes without his mother. 3 years Adolin spent back in Kholinar with Renarin.
Regarding Tien, the reason was they were short men, so where as Tien was supposed to only be a messenger, that group was broken up and put under various commands. Just the command he was put under put him in the front to distract the enemy so his skilled men could survive. Tien was also conscripted because the town already had a carpenter with an apprentice, and Tien would not make functional things. He would make artistic pieces. Kaladin had immunity from being called to the military, but when Tien got conscripted he volunteered to fight. His logic was by fighting he could protect Tien. So it was Kaladin’s choice to be part of the infantry.
@75: On the matter of Adolin/Renarin, if my memory serves me right, Dalinar says Adolin will have to go to Kholinar upon his 13th birthday to train with the Ardents. It was implied he never did so, having spent the last 7 years in Jah Keved.
The exact quote is: The time was approaching when Adolin would go spend part of the year in Kholinar, to drill with the swordsmasters and receive formal training in diplomacy. He spent most of the year with Dalinar, but it was important he get some refinement in the capital.
Emphasis is mine. The quote is inconclusive. The first sentence implies Adolin will soon have to spend part of his year into the capital thus implying he hasn’t done so yet. The second part verb tenses is odd and implies he is already doing so. Seeing Adolin’s reaction upon knowing he has soon to go back to Kholinar, I always took it he did spend all of this time with Dalinar.
Still, I am in need of a stronger backstory and rational to make the brother’s relationship work better.
On Tien, I know why Tien was sent to the army. What I do not understand is why the army wasted his training as a carpenter to have him as first a messenger, then a foot soldier. It would have been more effective to send him to work with the carpenters. The same is true with Kaladin though I assume he could request another assignment. It is odd he was granted his wish: surgeons must be rare. His skills do not seem the type you would want to waste away in a spearman.
Hence, this is odd to me.
On eye color: Adolin has light blue eyes and Renarin has sapphire blue eyes. I don’t think Dalinar’s eyes are ever described as anything else but blue, we never found out about Evi. I tend to think one of the boys has her eyes and the other has Dalinar’s. Since Adolin is the only one getting repetively described with light blue eyes and since Dalinar links his eyes to Evi later in OB, I took he has her eyes, but this is not confirmed in any definite manner.
@76 Gepeto
Personally I disagree. The syntax says to me that like with Evi returning to Kholinar half the year, so too does Adolin. Unless we are to believe Adolin can receive all his training he will ever need in a few months, without any follow up practice? You can want all the further backstory you want, wasn’t saying you couldn’t want more. You just asked where Isilel got the idea that Adolin went back to Kholinar, so I referenced the scene.
On Tien it is literally stated the reason that the brightlord could send Tien to the army as a conscript was because he was a second carpenter’s apprentice. He was considered non-essential to operation. They needed bodies so he got added. Kaladin chose, Amaram could not refuse the volunteer.
@77: My interpretation of the narrative is up until he turns 13, it is acceptable for Adolin not to get formal training. However, once he reaches this age, he will have to spend most of his time in Kholinar to receive it. It is also implied Dalinar did visit, sometimes, so here Adolin most certainly came with him. Those visits were probably short and sparse. The quote where Evi says she returns to Kholinar for half a year to be with Renarin doesn’t mention Adolin, but the textual mentions Adolin soon needing to go there too.
Hence I do not find it is implied Adolin went back to Kholinar with his mother for half the year. Adolin was chagrined to see the day come where he would need to, thus again implying he is currently spending most of his time with Dalinar.
Dalinar speaks of how found he is of those years where he taught Adolin the sword and riding. Adolin also had to run to his geography lessons thus again implying he is getting schooling in the warcamps. Later, when Adolin teaches Shallan, he wonders how Zahel would have corrected his stances had he never touched a sword prior to starting to train with him, thus implying Adolin was tutored before Zahel (and we find out it was Dalinar who taught him presumably). We know Zahel has been in Roshar for about 10 years, so the math works. Adolin didn’t get a real swordsmaster until he was 13 which seemed to have been considered the maximum age to do so, at least according to Dalinar.
I must thus respectfully disagree: I find evidence points towards Adolin having spend 7 years in Jah Keved with his father where he was incorporated into various army operations, tutored and trained as a soldier (this directly contradicts the canon from WoK/WoR). If he visited Kholinar, it was only for brief moments thus explaining why he is anxious over needing to go back there for a longer time period. Hence, by all means, brothers did grow up apart during their childhood or at least until Evi was killed. I find this new context makes it harder to explain their close relationship, not impossible, just harder especially given Renarin’s condition.
This is how I read it anyway. I never read it as Adolin doing the trip back and forth. Nor did young Adolin ever express a glimmer of interest towards his younger brother.
On Tien, I was not arguing as to why Tien was send to the army, this is clear enough within the textual. I was however wondering why Amaram was wasting an apprentice carpenter as a foot soldier when he could have sent him to work with the armies carpenters. All in all, it seemed like bad management.
@78 Gepeto
Adolin started sword training at 6 years old (Words of Radiance page 333). Renarin commented Adolin was unique in that. Dalinar commented Adolin was 12, not 13 (Oathbringer page 658). Dalinar used to visit prior to the Fort. Evi and him had a fight about it (Oathbringer page 515). That is when they came to the arrangement where she would accompany him. If they were at the Fort for 6 to 7 years (like Evi said, Oathbringer page 662), that would line up perfectly with when he started his sword training. So that to me says again he did do his sword training and such back in Kholinar for part of the year, for 6 to 7 years.
The carpenters were necessary for building bridges on the shattered plains, not back home.
@79: Adolin started sword training at the age of 6: it is never implied he did so with the swordmaster. In OB, we find out he did so with Dalinar. In OB, it is explicitly stated Adolin is 12 nearing on 13 and once he reaches this age, he will have to go train with the swordmasters which isn’t to say he received no training prior to this. He did. Zahel speaks of him as a teenager refusing to allow him to teach him anything when he first started training him. How would 13 years old Adolin get this behavior? Because he was already trained, just not formally.
I never said Dalinar never visited. I said he did visit, but Evi implies those visits are too sparse and too short. He says he doesn’t see Renarin enough. Hence, Adolin sees Renarin about as often as Dalinar does see him. How often is this? Well, we do not know, but Evi thinks it is insufficient and it certainly is less than half the year.
At the Fort, Adolin is 4, not 6. Hence his 6-7 years staying with Dalinar likely started a bit later, So it must be he wasn’t fully with Dalinar until he was 6. Prior to this must have been the adjustment period for Evi to train as a scribe.
Everything points towards Adolin not having spend much time in Kholinar. Again, it is explicitly stated Adolin, at 12, is not training with the swordmasters. Dalinar says he will soon have to. This all coincide with the Zahel narrative arc.
Hence, once again, I must respectfully disagree with you. I find the evidence points in another direction as the one you are suggesting.
They may not have need for bridges, but they had carts, wagons, bows, arrows and potential siege machinery all requiring carpenters.
So couple of things. First never said Adolin was trained by a swordmaster under 13 years old. All I said was he was trained in the sword. Adolin refused to be trained by Zahel in the beginning. Doesn’t mean he could have been trained by someone else. Second, I was the one that said after Evi and Dalinar’s argument that Dalinar had not returned to Kholinar. Dalinar mentions that Gavilar’s supporters would be concerned about Dalinar being near because of his growing popularity with the other generals. Third, Adolin was Five years old when he visited Dalinar with Evi and Renarin in that flash back. Then he was six when he began sword training. Then he was 12 when we next see him at the Fort as per Dalinar. Evi says they have been doing this 6 to 7 years. So everything is consistent with Adolin going back to Kholinar to train in the sword from the age of 6 to 12 when Dalinar heads to the Rift. If you don’t believe the page references I have provided for every step in my prior post, there is not much else I can do. Read as you wish.
The battles Amaram had were border disputes, we do not see one single instance of them needing to use siege warfare. Also considering they stopped at local towns to resupply again I do not see the need of carpenters, but feel free to read it as you wish.
A mobile fighting force should always include carts or wagons to move fodder and equipment. On Roshar specifically they would have need of storm shelters as well (not much use for siege equipment though). Tien’s talents could have been used for those purposes without much danger. That he was handed a spear and sent to the front lines points to resource mismanagement more than anything.
@Gepeto, #76:
The quote is actually very clear. Your implication is not present. Dalinar is thinking that the time for Adolin to go to Kholinar just like he does every year is approaching.
As for Tien’s carpentry, it’s worth mentioning that the armies have Soulcasters. This reduces the need for handmade stuff in general.
Soulcasters can and do make raw materials. They don’t make complex machines. For example, one can soulcast wood but one cannot soulcast a wagon. One can use soulcasting to make parts but it still requires someone to put those parts together. Then consider this; soulcasters are a truly finite resource. Considering the country is at war and all of the best resources are heading to the Shattered Plains, how many soulcasters are realistically going to be allocated to what amounts to raiders engaging in border skirmishes?
@84 EvilMonkey
Carpenters that can make repairs and such in the towns they resupply at between traveling to border disputes. Kaladin comments in Oathbringer about the various towns he passed through while under Amaram. These are not military forays in foreign countries. It is the equivalency of if you live in the US, going from the middle of California to the southern tip of California to fight a border dispute with Arizona. Along the way the army passes through towns to resupply food, commission additional men, make any repairs, and then move on. But at this point it is purely opinion because there are no specific indicators in the book to show either way. All we know is Tien was made into a messenger. When they were short of men, Tien and other messengers were assigned to various units. The leader of that unit put him in harms way to protect his better trained men. That is all we know with certainty.
In my military career I have participated in cross country convoys. And sure there were rest stops and opportunities to refuel and such, but there was always a mechanic to fix problems en route.
Now I realize this isn’t a modern day army so some things will obviously be different but the same stuff applies. I’m sure that out in the hinterlands of Kholinar there’s not going to be towns much closer than a day’s ride for an army column. It’s probably worse since I’m not entirely sure about road conditions. They might not have felt the need for much in the way of roads with all the stone around but who knows. Another complication is that sometimes Storm Wardens are wrong. Let’s say they’ve been caught out in a Highstorm half a day’s ride from the nearest place to rest and refuel. They get hunkered down in time but a huge rock blows in and cracks the axle of the lead wagon, the one carrying the spare weapons. Having a carpenter or wheelwright would come in handy. In fact, seeing such a thing happen to one wagon it would probably be a good idea to check for damage to the entire train, even if its only a cursory inspection to prevent further breakdowns.
I know what actually ended up happening and that my musings are speculative. All I’m saying is that carpentry is a skill, always has been. It isn’t something that just anyone can do. Any kid can run a message, not everyone can fix a broken wheel. Were I Amaram I would have sent the kid to my builders and mechanics and picked another farmboy to run my messages. That’s just piss poor allocation of troop strength that ultimately sent Tien to the front line and death. And as I think on it I realize that what Amaram needed was a wife. Or a daughter from one of his trusted lieutenants. Basically someone who would be qualified to deal with detailed work like resource allocation. Someone who would help him run his army efficiently, leaving him free to focus on being a dirtbag and traitor to humanity.
@81: As I said above, we read the same passage very differently. I do agree to disagree with you.
I will however highlight the fact Adolin was 4 and not 5 when he first visited the warcamps. The flashback happens 18 and a half years ago, so 4 and a half years after his birth which is labeled at 23 years ago. Adolin is currently 23. He was born 23 years ago which also works with the age he says he has in both WoK/WoR (it is currently assumed Adolin actually turned 23 sometimes in late WoK, early WoR due to him presumably being born within the 9th month of the year). 18 and a half years ago, he was 4, not 5. This is consistant with the timeline, as we know it. Renarin is probably around a year old (because he can walk) within the same flashback which again is coherent with their ages in WoK/WoR. The brothers aren’t 4-5 years apart, they are closer to 3 years apart which again works with the canon from WoK/WoR.
On the matter of Tien, I am not a soldier, but it seems illogical an army wouldn’t employ teams of carpenters. They had workers and camp followers, Tarah’s father was one of them. Not everyone can do carpentry, anyone can run a message: the fact Tien’s apprenticeship was dismissed testifies of poor ressources management. The fact Kaladin was allowed to carry a spear when he was more valuable as a surgeon also testifies of poor management. Even Lirin was surprised Kaladin didn’t end up with the surgeons.
The boys had valuable skills, skills not every farmer possessed. In the Moash’s chapters, we see the Fused warn anyone trying to hide having any trade they would suffer reprisal. Trades are important. Apprentices are valuable, even the carpenter’s third apprentice who refuses to make chairs. The fact remains, Tien can make a chair and he was an asset not a liability.
I am also surprise Lirin didn’t raise the point: you send my son to war, at least put him up with your carpenters. So either it is Amaram’s army is horribly managed and/or this was overlooked to create “a moment” where Tien “dies”.
On the issue of the parshmen:
This discussion reminded me of Robert C O’Brien’s book, A Report from Group 17. IIRC, centuries ago, in the Americas, there was some water poisoned by volcanic activity that caused permanent brain damage in anyone who drank it, making them completely passive. They literally would sit down and starve if people didn’t make them feed and care for themselves. The condition also turned out to be hereditary.
This created a master-slave relationship between the unpoisoned people and the poisoned ones. In the book, evil guys in the modern world are trying to recreate the poison for world conquering purposes, but the original community had no choice. It happened, and they could either keep the poisoned people alive as docile slaves or leave them to die.
How the parshmen were treated was wrong and what happened to them was wrong. But, I’m not sure what right thing could have been done, especially once the humans forgot that parshmen could be the equals of human beings. I think this ambiguity is deliberate and that we’re supposed to be doing some soul searching about what is right.
We know what we want–parshmen able to function as independent, intelligent beings without the danger of being taken over by dead ancestors. We know what’s the worst case scenario–parshmen left to die once they’ve lost the ability to function as independent, intelligent beings. We know that what happened–parshmen reduced to slaves without the right to form their own families–is not a good compromise. But, I’m still not sure of the solution.
Another thing worth thinking about. I read once that, in the case of child abuse deaths (yeah, sorry, ugly topic switch, but it’s relevant) supposedly, one of the most important factors in getting a conviction in the case of a toddler was if the toddler could talk. The theory was jurors were much more likely to empathize with and see the humanity of people who could talk.
Parshmen can talk to some degree. But, until recently, they couldn’t protest. They couldn’t state outrage or pain, and that made it easy for other people to ignore without even realizing they were ignoring it.
@86 EvilMonkey
There is a difference in my mind between being a mechanic that can fix an engine of a car with the tools available, and fixing a broken axle of a wagon. Would the mechanic in your convoy be able to fix the broken axle of a car? Or would they need replacement parts? Would the convoys you were on carry replacement axles with them? Or would they have the machinery to create replacements right there? So too in my mind stands for carpenters. Wear and tear is one thing, and can be trained to anyone (within reason for a wooden cart). But if an axle breaks, you either carry around replacements, take/buy a new cart from the next town, or have the local carpenters do it. A town in that time period to function requires carpenters. Depending on the location of the towns you drove through, you might not find a mechanic qualified to repair the vehicles in your convoy. You are not carrying a lumber yard with you when you travel between border disputes. But that is just my own understanding
follow up question, did the mechanic on your convoy also receive military training and was expected to see combat if your convoy was attacked?
@87 Gepeto,
Can you please provide page references where you are getting your numbers? You are throwing around a lot of date years, but have you checked the pages I have referenced? Was Renarin wrong in stating Adolin’s age of 6? Was Dalinar wrong at stating Adolin’s age at 12? Was Evi wrong at stating how long they have been there? Please provide your references. Thank you.
Scath @89
The carpenter in my example doesn’t necessarily fix the axle as the parts may not be available. The carpenter would however know of a stopgap method to at least get the cart or wagon to the place where the equipment can be taken care of more thoroughly, a method that would at least keep the equipment salvageable. Or maybe they could cannibalize another piece of equipment. Really anything, they are the experts and they would be able to accurately assess the situation. Of course we aren’t speaking of a modern army; I don’t know if those carpenters on the SP were actually soldiers or contractors. The fact that they have army surgeons suggests that they have broken the army down into specialties but maybe not. Amaram was reported to be a great general; bad resource management doesn’t jibe with that image. Maybe putting Tien in with the carpenters wasn’t an option. Dunno.
BTW In my military experience everyone has a weapon and everyone is trained to fight, at least as a last resort. The only people not carrying a weapon for us were the Chaplain and his/her assistants.
@89: The After his Father chapter happens 18 and a half years ago. The Born Unto Light chapter happens 23 years ago. 23-18.5=4.5, not 5. As for Renarin, his date of birth is not known, but he was walking, making a few steps, hence he wasn’t an infant. He was a toddler, so around one year, give or take a few months, but he wasn’t a newborn.
I did say Adolin did start training at the age of 6, I never contradicted this fact, it is right there in chapter 32 if WoR, but this age doesn’t work with the age he was when he first joined Dalinar to the warcamps. Hence I assumed there was a buffer period in between this chapter and the beginning of Adolin’s training.
And yes, Evi did say 6-7 years, this is true, but nothing says she started being with Dalinar half a year time right after the After His Father chapter. It only says their arrangement worked for this period of time, not when it started, precisely.
And yes Adolin is 12 within the before the Rift chapter. Dalinar however states he was nearing on 13. It is easy to assume he got under Zahel’s tutelage at 13 or 12 being almost 13.
The Born Unto Light starts on page 486 and the After His Father chapters starts on page 512. It says 23 years ago and 18 and a half years ago. It makes Adolin 4.5 years old, not 5 years old. And Renarin is old enough to walk, so not a small baby. It means brothers are about 3.5 years apart, not 4 or 5. This is consistent with WoK/WoR too.
@EvilMonkey, “The only people not carrying a weapon for us were the Chaplain and his/her assistants.” I used to game with a former Chaplain’s Assistant. Andy took that job specifically because he hated cleaning his rifle.
I wanted to point out a line from chapter 19 that has been overlooked. “Perhaps Dalinar’s worries had more to do with himself than they did with Gavilar. … It all seemed to leave Dalinar behind like the discarded shell of a cremling after it molted.” I wonder what that’s like? To feel that the world is changing so rapidly that it’s just passing you by? And that’s what a lot of The Stormlight Archive seems to be to me, characters struggling to adapt to a changing world and their place in it.
I am surprised we don’t see some minor characters who both find themselves unable to change their way of thinking, but not wanting to join the side of Odium where they would have to have to hurt others in order to keep it, decide to take at third ground and just up and become hermits.
@90 EvilMonkey
And in this case my argument is you would use a stopgap that anyone in the army could be trained to do, till you get to the next town to repair it. Merchant convoys did that all the time in the novels. Basically I feel it is a pretty big jump in my opinion to pick this one story aspect of Tien, and say Amaram is a horrible military leader as result. He could be called a bad one because of the way he led the Sadeas army after Sadeas was killed sure, but all because Tien was the second apprentice of a carpenter, just in the beginning of his training? For me, no that does not apply
@91 Gepeto
I get that you are inferring ages from title headings, but personally I would use the in world character’s statements of age and time as canon. You are free to assume there is a buffer of time, but based on what the characters in the novel said, Adolin spending part of the year sword training in Kholinar for the past 6 to 7 years is supported.
@Scáth
First, as much as I find Amaram to be distasteful, I was not calling him a terrible commander based off of poor resource management. In fact I tried to give him the benefit of a doubt when saying that the option to send Tien to the carpenters may not have been available as this army probably isn’t set up with the type of specialization common in modern armies. Even if it was an option I still would not call him a bad commander (other than the tiny detail of selling out the men in his command). The textual evidence reports that he has the reputation of a good field commander. Every leader has weaknesses; his would have been poor resource management. His unforgivable flaw would not have been that. It would be disloyalty to the people who are supposed to trust him, the soldiers under his command.
As for the merchant convoys, those are vastly different than a military convoy. Their purpose is one reason. Merchants are expected to move goods from one location to the other, preferably as fast as possible. A military convoy is moving equipment and personnel from one location to another in expectation of a fight if not at the end of said convoy then in the near future. As a merchant, profit margins are the guiding principle. If a wagon is lost it could sink the enterprise so a merchant will typically send more goods than what is ordered so that the loss of a wagon or 2 won’t result in unrecoverable losses. As a commander, the guiding principle is to bring as much force to bear on the target of choice. The people you bring with you could be all you have and the loss of a squad or two could drastically impact a battle. The poem which starts “for want of a nail, the horseshoe was lost” comes to mind. That’s sort of important. The greater factor involves how these ventures are funded. Merchant convoys are generally funded by one guy or maybe a family business. Profit being the big deal that it is, having some random dude trained up to perform wagon maintenance, probably in addition to 3 or 4 other duties, is a way to save a couple bucks. Or in the case of a single person or family, they may be forced to do the maintenance themselves because they cannot afford to pay a professional. With the military, funded by the state, money isn’t a prime consideration. Sure they could train a random jamoke to do the job but they aren’t limited to that option. And if speed and efficiency is the aim then why would they settle for less than the best available? Plus, you are expecting the soldiers to be as close to top physical fighting form when they reach their destination. The guy you tail off to fix the broken wagon won’t be. However. If you got a guy whose only job is to keep the wagons running then that guy can focus on that task, making your fleet run smoothly and preventing many problems that would slow the force before they manifest. And if the unavoidable happens they can get back on the road more quickly. I could go on and on but I think I’ve gone on too long already. Suffice to say, sure they could operate as a merchant convoy would but they aren’t forced to and in certain circumstances that would be the absolute wrong approach. There are times when an army doesn’t want to depend on a populace to support them or supply their needs; for those times it’s good to have a specialist on staff.
@95 EvilMonkey
I apologize if I generalized your position. From the way the posts came out, it appeared you agreed with Gepeto’s stance, which was Amaram was an incompetent leader for not using Tien as a carpenter or Sanderson forced it that way. Here are the quotes from Gepeto below
Gepeto 78 On Tien, I was not arguing as to why Tien was send to the army, this is clear enough within the textual. I was however wondering why Amaram was wasting an apprentice carpenter as a foot soldier when he could have sent him to work with the armies carpenters. All in all, it seemed like bad management.
Gepeto 87 So either it is Amaram’s army is horribly managed and/or this was overlooked to create “a moment” where Tien “dies”.
So what I am getting is you feel mismanaging an army is not reflective on Amaram’s capacity as a military commander. If that is the case, then there isn’t much further we need to discuss. I still personally feel it makes sense for what happened with Tien. Also all authors mess up or have flaws, but I do not feel Tien being sent to the army was artificial or forced. That was Gepeto’s argument. I replied with my rationale. You disagreed with that rationale, I elaborated and so on.
Now regarding the rest of your post, if your military unit is low on fighting man power, but have a glut of trained mechanics, are you going to put the guy that tinkers with cars as a hobby with your mechanics hindering your combat capabilities, or put him with the combatants? An unfortunate fact of combat is sometimes an extra body, even if it is just to take a bullet, can mean the difference between victory and defeat. If you already have the staff to repair, field, and such for your equipment, why impair your other functions just because the soldier may have a taste of the profession? Again, yes Tien can carve a wonderful horsey but all the immediate commander knows is that Tien is a spare carpenter apprentice. It is said repeatedly they are short men. That’s why they went from volunteers to conscripting. Amaram said himself they take what they can get. Tien as far as everyone is concerned is not a specialist. So personally I am still unsure about how a secondary carpenter apprentice is supposed to be so crucial to the military effort that by being placed anywhere other than far away from the front lines is mismanagement.
Like EvilMonkey and Carl, I was also a soldier once. I was a 15P, which is basically a glorified clerk at an airfield. (I wanted to be a pilot, but god laughs at the plans of mice and men, and occasionally gives them debilitating vision problems.)
On my first and only deployment, I was assigned to an infantry unit (?) that was running motorpool operations (?!) as a “filler.” My responsibilities were unloading a truck twice a day and sweeping out the parts shack. My best friend was trained as driver, but they stuck her in the motorpool as well. She supervised the oil barrels.
It is totally believable, to me, that a kid who had no earthly use as a front-line soldier was given a spear and told to stand in line because of the needs of the moment.
Sister you are absolutely right. And shame on me too. I got hung up too much on military theory and the pros/cons of force allocation instead of focusing on what typically happens when theory runs into non-ideal conditions. In practice kids like Tien fall through the cracks from time to time and those that would have been better served elsewhere or with other duties more in line with their skill set.
Scath, I agree that Tien’s assignment was a realistic portrayal. That may have been Gepeto’s argument but it wasn’t quite what I was getting at. I figured that someone with a reputation of being a good commander should have a better grasp on personnel management than Amaram has shown. I just recently re-read Ender’s Game so my standards in the command competency department may have been temporarily raised higher as a result. Still, Tien got a raw deal and while it’s understandable I still sought to figure out why.
Now it’s certainly true that Tien wasn’t a master carpenter or even an overly talented apprentice. It’s also equally true that one look at the kid would tell you he isn’t soldier material either. In ideal circumstances where would you rather place a kid like Tien, on the front lines where his actions more likely result in him and others killed or with the carpenters where he’s shown at least a little proficiency? One could argue that he’s never going to be an asset on the battlefield but he has a more than decent chance to become an asset with the builders. But like I said above, I got a bit too hung up on an ideal condition that did not exist, for if conditions were ideal then Tien would have never left Hearthstone. Amaram didn’t even really want to pick Tien even though he was on the list.
Last, Amaram is a competent fighter but he is a horrible commander. The resource management issues I have with him would be a mark against his record and would knock him out of consideration for elite status, but if that were his only flaw he’d still have a shot at being good or even above average. Betrayal of those who owe their loyalty to him though? That places him firmly in the awful category no matter his reputation or fighting prowess.
Re: #97, just to avoid taking credit for something I did not do, I have never served in the military. I have been a defense contractor several times, and I used to manage a game store that catered to wargamers, and I’m a student of history. Not ignorant, but never served.
OK, I am probably too late, but here are some few thoughts on the things being discussed towards the end of the thread:
Gepeto,
I don’t think that it makes any sense for Adolin to have stayed with Dalinar since Evi’s visit when he was 4. It is not the Alethi way – as Dalinar quite volubly reminds his wife in the respective chapter. It is possible that once Evi started to spend half a year with Dalinar, she brought Adolin with her, or that shorter visits were arranged, until he reached 9-10 and could remain with his father without his mother. Which is the age when highborn Alethi light-eyed boys may start to spend their time with the army as part of their education, as was mentioned in WoK when Tien was drafted. Alethi military men have no use for young children and nothing that we have seen about Dalinar would suggest that he was an exception. Nor is anything like that mentioned in the text. Yes, at 12 Adolin spends greater part of the year with the army, but that doesn’t mean that this was the case when he was a small child. Also, let’s not forget Renarin’s health troubles – I bet that once they manifested, Evi spent more time with him in the capital at first and only began to spend half of each year with Dalinar when it became clear that he chronical illness was stable, rather than worsening.
So, logically speaking, there shoud have been plenty of time during Adolin’s and Renarin’s childhoods when they spent time together. And, of course, Adolin returned to Kholinar at 12 and 5 or so years later the 2 of them set out for the Shattered plains.
Scath, EvilMonkey:
The problem with Amaram is that he was portayed very inconsistently as a military commander. Yes, we hear again and again that he was supposed to be a good general, but what we saw from Kaladin and Cenn’s PoVs made him look quite bad. Pretty much the only thing that held up was the he kept an orderly camp. Otherwise, he looked pretty incompetent and Tien – who was, BTW, a _third_ carpenter’s apprentice back in Hearthstone, is the least of it. And, frankly, given Tien’s distractability and unwillingness to toe the line even with his old master, it is easy to see how he would have been a bad army carpenter _and_ a bad messenger. Not to mention, that a very recent WoB confirmed what we have all suspected – that he was becoming a Lightweaver, and as such, may have been the one incipient Surge-Binder in Amaram’s army that the Skybreakers managed to remove.
But all of Kaladin’s heroics in Amaram’s army were necessary exactly because it was badly lead. He even noted in his PoV in WoK that all the surgeon’s apprentices there were men with physical disabilities, who coudn’t have fought, so no wonder that he was made a spearman despite his valuable training. We were shown lack of discipline from Amaram’s soldiers in battle, lack of cohesion, huge losses, Kaladin having to bribe surgeons to get his men medical help, etc. And all the best soldiers being funneled to the Shattered Plains was not a valid excuse, since those are systemic failures that a good commander should have been able to stamp out. Cenn had _3 months_ of training – that’s quite good for a pre-modern army, and, in fact, more than many soldiers got during the World Wars. Finally, Amaram was fighting third-raters who remained at home for years without achieving any decisive results, which only shows that in the end he was not much better than them, if at all. And, in fact, Jasnah in OB did think that he was mediocre – we don’t know why Dalinar had such an inflated opinion of him.
@98 EvilMonkey
Not to beat a dead horse, but this isn’t the ideal circumstance. The situation is they are running out of men for the meatgrinder. The soldiers either die, or if they distinguish themselves, they get sent to the Shattered Plains. So in this specific case the border disputes didn’t need more trained carpenters. They needed more bodies on the front lines. The commanding officer (read not Amaram, but Tien’s immediate supervisor) that put Tien where he was, didn’t do it because he thought Tien was an able bodied solider. He did it because he knew Tien would be a liability, and he chose to turn a liability into an advantage by using Tien and others like him as bait to draw fire. It is horrendous that that commander chose to do so. We see that from Kaladin’s perspective. But that is still the reason why.
Now I just wanted to clarify one thing that I am unsure if it is being misunderstood. Amaram is a horrible human being. I utterly despise him. All of this was not to say he was a good person. As I said in the prior post, I was responding to Gepeto’s causal line that by Tien who was a secondary carpenter’s apprentice, being put with the solders, means Amaram was inept as a commander. Based on what we know of the situation, I do not feel the two are causally linked. Was Amaram crem for what he did to Kaladin and his men? Totally! Letting the Sadeas armies get to be the way they were when he took over after Sadeas’s death? Totally! (though I theorize he had already switched sides at that point, so that might have been intentional on his part). But in my opinion, not because of Tien.
@@@@@ 99: Sorry, I must not have read your comments carefully enough. I thought of putting a question mark by your name as I was writing my original comment, but I thought that might have been disrespectful. It’s hard to scroll through these comments on a phone, so I couldn’t find the place where you mentioned your experience with or in the military by the time I was writing about it.
On Amaram: He seems to be an able commander by Alethi standards, because he keeps on taking untrained men and sending enough of them to Sadeas to keep his brightlord’s army running along well enough, but by our standards he’s barely competent. As a commander, though, he’s in a pretty terrible position, being underfunded and not expected to actually create and run a stable peace-keeping force but to keep funneling his best soldiers to the “real” war. Maybe his competence is shown by the fact that, despite these hardships, he’s managed to guard his highprince’s lands relatively well and supply him with soldiers.
Still an utterly horrible human being, though.
Scath @101:
Well, it is not entirely true that Amaram sent all soldiers who managed to distinguish themselves on to Sadeas, is it? Because Kaladin had been with his army for 4 years, managed to gain quite a reputation, and he still felt that only acts of extraordinary achievement could get him and his squad to the Shattered Plains (if only he knew!). But constant bloody battles with third-stringers that didn’t lead to any decisive victories don’t speak well of Amaram’s generalship.
Tien is a different story entirely, since it seems likely that he was purposefully set up by Skybreakers, who had identified him as a budding surge-binder, and the other messenger boys with him were collateral damage. Oh, and that manoeuver that his sergeant pulled, making him and the other youngsters into bait? A good commander would have stamped such thinking out of his soldiers, because it is corrosive to cohesiveness and discipline. Also, experience required to not break for real after this feint is not inconsiderable, and the soldiers had to be pretty good to make it work.
Sisterofhain @102:
But we know from Cenn’s PoV that new recruits are actually quite well trained by pre-modern standards. The problem is that due to Amaram’s poor leadership and poor choice of subordinates (Sheler!) too many of them died before becoming blooded veterans.
It might be worth mentioning: Aleith culture might confuse “very good in a fight” with “very good warleader.” They aren’t the same, but they can look the same. Thus Amaram, a very skilled hand-to-hand fighter, would look like a good leader to Alethi warriors.
On the matter of character ages: I consider the chapter titles to be part of the canon information. I also noted how Brandon made the distinction for the “half of year” for the young Adolin flashback. I doubt he would have gone through the bother of doing this if the timeline was this inaccurate. Now, of course, it gets messy later on and, yes, readers did advise Brandon and his assistants is timeline seems off at times. This was noted by many readers.
So, where does this leave us? It leaves us to Dalinar saying over a year ago, little Adolin was just a toddler still learning how to speak which is a description more apt to represent a 3 years old (and even younger) than a 4 years old. Hence, little Adolin being 5 or above during this scene is not supported by: 1) his book age per WoK/WoR, 2) his age considering the chapter titles, 3) Dalinar comments on how he was just a toddler a little over a year ago. All of this information grouped together makes it little Adolin was likely somewhere in between 4 and 5 during this flashback and not older.
And yes, this creates a gap in between his 6-7 years with Dalinar in Jah Keved and the first time he went to the warcamps. I don’t think much of it, Adolin was very young then, it is likely he went back to Kholinar with Renarin, but came back when he turned 6.
On the matter of when and how often he went back home: The narrative makes the distinction in between Evi spending half her years in Kholinar and Adolin spending most of his years with Dalinar. Hence, it seems pretty much confirmed no matter how often Adolin goes back home, it isn’t as often as Evi. I for one still wonder how the brothers got so close given they were apart so often.
On Amaram and Tien: Well, yeah, I did raise the point of Tien having training as a carpenter but instead being used as a mere foot soldier, send off to die as bait. Yeah, it was odd too me and yeah I did wonder what it told us of Amamram’s leadership and managing skills here. So while, yeah, I get a kid might be asked to hold a spear because this is where the needs were, but Tien was basically sacrificed. He was used as bait, he was sent to die. He was… like the bridgemen: his function was to divert the attack on him to leave more room for the experienced soldiers.
Of course it seems, such tactics are praised within the Alethi armies, wasting human life never seem to matter nor efficient use of resources.
I personally think it does not speak highly of Amaram, but given the context of Alethkar, I have no issues believing he would be thought of as a “great military leader” despite those obvious flaws as, well, those wouldn’t have been seen as flaws by others.
And yeah, I did wonder of all of this was over-looked just to create a situation where Tien died. Brandon sometimes twists the narrative to work around a planned event: I wondered if this was such a case, perhaps it wasn’t, but I felt it was a valid point to raise.
@105 Specifically in regards to the brothers getting close despite frequent absence:
I wound up being pretty close with the older of my two half-siblings despite spending most of their life living with my other parent and only seeing them about two months out of the year. To some degree, my absence led to them idolizing me more than if they got to experience my BS.
@105 Gepeto
That is great and all, but you originally stated Adolin did not go back to Kholinar at all. I stated he did for sword training, alternating. I am glad we can now agree that Adolin has in fact returned to Kholinar over the course of 6 to 7 years for sword training as per the information we are given in the books.
As I have said in other posts, Amaram is not the one that used Tien as bait. Amaram assigned Tien to the messengers. When they were so desperately short men, Tien’s field commander reassigned him to spear men. Then the commander of that group of spear men moved Tien and the other green members of his unit into a vunerable position as bait to draw the enemy to preserve his trained men. So once again, Amaram did not assign Tien to spear crew and did not use him as bait. Amaram is a horrible individual, for tons and tons of reasons, but Tien is not one of them as per the book.
Late to the game but I have some things to add-
@Gepeto 105- On Adolin and Renarin being close. Is it not possible for people to become close friends with people that they didn’t grow up with at all? I didn’t grow up with any of my friends. I would think that them being brothers would help because of family loyalty unless they really didn’t get along. Another aspect to consider is Evi’s death. It is possible that event drew them together. They both seem to care deeply about others and they didn’t have a great support in their father at that time.
On the creature walking in the highstorm- I’m reading WoK right now and I just read the first highstorm experience we get when Kaladin is in the slave wagon. It says this:
It seems to show that the regular people have some sort of passed down lore that there are possibly “things” out in the storms and that light that isn’t lightning is connected.
Also, Dalinar reminds me of Mr Incredible in this chapter. Pushing open the door with people behind it, bending his knife.
When George Washington defeated the British he could have become king. Instead he resigned his commission as General of the Continental Army and retired to civilian life at his home at Mt Vernon. Contrary to his desire to remain a civilian at Mt Vernon he ultimately agreed to become President and shape the Executive branch into its current format. He limited his presidency to only two terms establishing yet another precedence of epic signifance.
He also freed his slaves on his death. An argument can be made that this was too little too late, however I favor the notion that he was a good man who took a long view on likely the most contentious issue of his time. Had he pushed the states too strongly on outlawing slaves the country would have fractured.
To the question of what conqueror ever walked away from further conquest I give you George Washington.
“They’re just people, people with a legitimate grievance and reason to seek retribution for the wrongs that have been done to them. Both sides are the ‘good guys.'”
This is true, and both sides are being manipulated by Odium.
@36 What about China? Historically it’s been an empire
Two of the big mysteries is wtf the storm striders are we see here and when Kal is in the chasm, and where the hell Evis brother has been haha. We know he retired to Herdaz with some alethi guards but surprised he didn’t show back up during the desolation.